aerobatic aircaft and endorsement

[Jay]

Question - there appears to to be no specific aerobatic endorsement for Recreational Certificates ... so how does a rec pilot get this and what rec aircraft are suitable ( I know only of the Sonex in single seat mode ) i_dunno

 

 

[MrH]

No aeros in RAAus. You need to go PPL GA if you want to do that .

 

Cheers

 

H

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

No such thing in RA.

 

Only way to do it is with a PPL in VH-registered aircraft.

 

 

[Guest babs1aus]

There seems to be a number of Raaus Aircraft attempting aerobatics, The mere fact that they are attempting them seems to indicate their lack of training and understanding of Aerobatic loads and safety to others around them.

 

There are a few more considerations to the aircraft than the +- loads ultimate, Have a chat to a lame about the detailed inspections carried out on certified Aerobatic endorsed aircraft and you begin to understand a little better the differences and requirements that seperate the RAAUS aircraft from certified and current VH registered aircraft aerobatic aircraft.

 

 

[facthunter]

inspections etc

 

Everything you have said Babs, plus knowing how to do it. Also the aircraft are not spin certified so that should rule them out, on it's own. If you muck things up you can overstress even an approved aircraft, and risk breaking it. Nev

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Hi Jay,

 

As was said before RAA cannot perform official aero's. Thats not a bad thing really.

 

As I have said many times in other forums I did fly some aero's in a Decathlon some 26 years ago . Yes - it is Fun - but it is ever so easy to pull enough g's to overstress an Raa certified plane. 4 g's are EASY to achieve by simply pulling out of a loop. Correct training is absolutely essential to gain the "FEEL" for it. It is however not hard at all - the limits however have to be understood - .Most if not all Raa planes are stressed to something near +4-2g's. That is simply NOT enough to do aero's with some sort of safety margin - legal or not. .may I suggest to pay the extra $ and hire a Decathlon or whatever and try it with an experienced pilot. It's well worth it and so much fun! Best of all it is SAFE! and as a bonus LEGAL!

 

And it is worth to rmember that ant stuff ups hurt all of us and make us look like "loose cannons " in the eyes of CASA. Let us play by the rules- and we will be respected !

 

let us know how you go should you hire a certified plane , there are many around.

 

fly safe

 

Walter

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I am not a fan of trying to get aeros to RA-Aus, but:

 

but it is ever so easy to pull enough g's to overstress an Raa certified plane.

The same is true for GA! In either system you need an aircraft designed for it. There are kit aircraft that would fit the weight of RA-Aus and are fully aerobatic. The Rans S-9 Chaos comes to mind.

 

 

[sseeker]

According to Flight Training Australia, there requirement for a pilot to conduct aerobatics in a GA aircraft is 4 hours instruction. This hardly seems like enough training? Keeping in mind this isn't all aerobatics, I know for doing inverted spins you need a spin endorsement as stated in CAAP 155.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

That's true, but you may only perform manoeuvres you have been taught and signed off in your log. With just 4 hours, that can't be too many!

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't think that you would be an expert after 4 hours, but that should be about 5 periods of 40 minutes. With proper pre-flight briefings and post flight reviews an experienced pilot should be able to cover all BASIC manoeuvers and recoveries from any unusual attitudes, that you are likely to get into. This should make you safe, to progress from there, if you wish or just appreciate what you and the plane could be capable of. Polishing up on specific routines /sequences to a competitive standard would take possiibly years for those with the aptitude and desire to go in that direction.

 

Remember that GOOD pilots use their experience and knowledge to avoid getting into the extreme situations that require EXCEPTIONAL skill to get out of. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

This might sound dumb, but in view of the fact that we are pretty much tracking word for word with previous posts, admittedly without the boasts of calibrated bums which can sense G forces, what about a couple of you guys, perhaps Facthunter and DJP putting together a Facts Sheet pointing out where to go to do some aerobatics (GA), and the pitfalls and dangers for the RA community and hired/owned aircraft. I couldn't see RAAus objecting to loading it on their website, and of course here. Then every student and licensed pilot can go there, print it out, and understand.

 

 

[djpacro]

..... a Facts Sheet pointing out where to go to do some aerobatics (GA), and the pitfalls and dangers for the RA community and hired/owned aircraft...

Google and personal references will remain the most effective way of finding out where to go for spin, aerobatic, unusual attitude or upset recovery training - followed up by talking to the instructors before making a decision. An Australian supplement to Rich Stowell's http://www.richstowell.com/documents/Shop-for-Acro.pdf may be useful.

 

.... Then every student and licensed pilot can go there, print it out, and understand.

We have CASA's CAAP which has a lot of good stuff in it (and some parts which are hard going). In the other thread I've had a go at extracting some key text from the CAAP, rather than re-invent the wheel and getting off track with my opinions.I see many aerobatic pilots who have not got an aerobatic endorsement as defined by CASA (i.e. some manoeuvres missing) and who are unaware of the associated limitations. That's not so much a concern but what else may be missing from their spin and aerobatic training? Our regulations are very prescriptive in some aspects of aerobatics but the standard of aerobatic training is really up to the school and the individual instructor. The CASA Day VFR Syllabus identifies the required underpinning knowledge for spin training but few instructors are aware of it in my experience. The CAAP has introduced recommendations for competency standards and underpinning knowledge. What you actually get may be quite different and perhaps somewhat less.

 

According to Flight Training Australia, there requirement for a pilot to conduct aerobatics in a GA aircraft is 4 hours instruction. This hardly seems like enough training? Keeping in mind this isn't all aerobatics, I know for doing inverted spins you need a spin endorsement as stated in CAAP 155.

Easy enough to ring FTA and ask what you get in their basic course and their advanced course.

I guess that Archerfield is like Moorabbin in that an hour there achieves about the same as 50 minutes in a place like Redcliffe or Lilydale.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Should spin training be a mandatory requirement for licensing?

 

Hi folks

 

I thought I'd resurrect an old topic... should spin training be a mandatory requirement for licensing?

 

Spin training has been a requirement for glider pilots for many years and remains so. It used to commonly be part of a basic PPL also.

 

While the majority of GA aircraft are not certified for spinning and like minor aerobatic manouvres, pilots flying them all too often push the envelope and end up in serious trouble... low and slow downwind turns after takeoff (usually in heavily loaded aircraft) and inadvertent entry into cloud are two examples of when this may occur.

 

I appreciate avoidance is far better than cure, especially in the first example, but understanding the dynamics of a spin and the ability to execute prompt recovery might just save a life (yours).

 

Apart from that justification, aeros are fun and the training definitely sharpens your skill set.

 

What thoughts?

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

Seems like an uphill battle you have there, kaz. I understand that there is no requirement for an RAA instructor to have undergone spin training, unlike GA instructor training.

 

The USA Congress has just mandated Upset Recovery training for all pilots of scheduled airliners. Spins are not included however, amongst other things, those pilots will need to know more about the behaviour of an aircraft at and beyond the stall. The Colgan accident recently prompted this action:

 

Also, I've heard that CASA is working towards making the GA instructor rating harder to achieve - seems that the tests won't get any harder after the recent changes (higher failure rate now I gather) - guidelines so that students put in more effort during the course.

 

I wonder if this new CAAP will explain what CASA really means with that 1.5 hours for spinning in their syllabus. I wonder how many instructors just do a spin or two, perhaps not even a fully developed spin - they have a box ticked but still don't know much about spinning.

 

Of course, there is more involved for an instructor to gain approval to teach spins to a student.

 

Now back to one point related to kaz's question.

 

We are a very long way short of having instructors who know enough about spinning themselves (as we'll see when this CAAP is issued) let alone having enough competent instructors who can teach spinning to students.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Seems like an uphill battle you have there, kaz. I understand that there is no requirement for an RAA instructor to have undergone spin training, unlike GA instructor training.You scare the hell out of me there DJ.

 

I recall as teenager flying a Chipmunk, suddenly pulling the stick over to imitate a 90 degree turn my uncle had pulled on me a couple of weeks before.

 

All I could sense next was a massive g push against my cheeks (next to my nose) and a horizon which had gone into orbit.

 

Maybe my Instructor (Roger Pitt, a legless pilot who had met Douglas Bader) allowed things to develop, or maybe I caught him by surprise.

 

Luckily his extensive training soon ensured the blue sky was above us.

 

What the hell happens when an Instructor hasn't had that training??????????

[facthunter]

Spin training.

 

I share the concerns expressed here. Re the lack of spin training for instructors.

 

There are plenty of airline pilots who have never done one. That's scary too.

 

This state of events was the result of the NON-suitability of the new generation of light aircraft from USA mainly, that were fairly docile and not strong enough and otherwise not suitable for spinning, becoming very popular world-wide. This happened in the 60's and the requirements changed to not do spinning.

 

Gliders because of their high aspect ratio wings NEED spin training.

 

I would HATE to have been a pilot without the training that I had in this area, and I feel that anyone who has not had the benefit of this exposure, is handicapped and may one day find him/herself in a situation that they cannot cope with.

 

We try to keep things simple and cheap in our game and the aircraft themselves are not certified capable of intentional spinning. To require this would probably put most of them off the market, so I do not suggest this be implemented, compulsorily.

 

I have always recommended that this training be done, and this has to be in a GA plane, of a suitable type with a proper programme, done properly with well trained instructors. It would not be cheap because there is a higher maintenance and inspection requirement on the aircraft. The matters covered would be spin & spiral training, and unusual attitude recovery. NOT aerobatics per se. This could save your and your passengers life one day, and change the whole way you approach flying an aeroplane, because of the greater understanding of what the plane is capable of. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

EMT.Course.

 

Totally agree. I have personally suggested the Group you mention. You have done the right thing. Good luck with your career. Nev..

 

 

[Bryon]

I want to do an aerobatics course. Only because it will teach me to be able to handle a plane in unusual situations. RAA does not teach you that. I wll feel much more comfortable knowing how to get out of a spin if one occurs etc.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I am not convinced of the merrit. How the hell do you get into a spin by accident?

 

Overshooting the turn to final, pulling hard to make it and stalling? Good luck recovering at 500ft if you get in a spin, no matter how much training you have.

 

Maybe if you get dissoriented in IMC? Good luck recovering from that at any altitude if you have only had VFR aerobatics training and an AH that doesn't work once you've turned it upside down.

 

Do the course for you enjoyment, but don't kid yourself that you are likely to use it one day to save your backside.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I did.

Can you be more specific than that? What situation did you get into and how, and how did you get out of it?

 

 

[Bryon]

I am not convinced of the merrit. How the hell do you get into a spin by accident?.

Bass, I understand your concern

But, if I dont know how a plane will react with different control inputs or how to counteract a situation, I am no good to myself or my passenger

 

I would rather know what a spin feels and looks like than inadvertantly get myself into one and not know what to do to get out of it

 

Besides, I might enjoy the feeling of +4 gs inverted:laugh:

 

Cheers

 

Bryon

 

 

[turboplanner]

I am not convinced of the merrit. How the hell do you get into a spin by accident?

Hi Bas, it's Human Factors

 

You visit your cousin and take him up for a flight. He's excited and doesn't stop talking, asks you to fly over his house and take a few photos. As you circle around, you see the the wife and kids are out on the lawn waving and tighten up the bank to stay in view.

 

Your cousin gets his camera out and fiddles around a bit, says, I can't see get them in the shot.

 

You lean over and take a look, and pull on a little more bank.

 

He says "Just a little bit more"

 

Then it's the sky the horizon the sky, nothings working right, which way is up, where are we going, Oh ****!

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Bass it's all in the thread on here titled http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/incidents-accidents/97987-crash-near-denman-nsw.html. Whilst the outcome wasn't good for AC the EMT training on "stall stick position" was heaven sent. It works!

Dexter, with all due respect, I applaud your making the best of a bad situation; nothing wrong with your stick and rudder skills.

I just don't see how spin training would have helped you here. "Don't stall it" training we all should have had; I am always acutely aware of my stick position during slow flight, something drilled into me by my basic flying instructor.

 

 

[facthunter]

unusual attitude recovery.

 

Bass, I think it is essential for instructors to do this. Students in the course of training will sometimes get a plane into a situation where you would not let it go yourself. You have to give them a bit of rope. IF you jump onto the controls at the first sign of getting outside the square/profile, they won't learn much and will just think that you are a bit jumpy/nervous.

 

Planes like Lancairs react very rapidly to a bit of top rudder in a steep turn if you get a bit slow.

 

In reality you would not let it get into a fully developed spin as you would not have the height to recover.

 

There are instructors out there who do not believe in "stick stall position". Most inadvertent spins that cause disaster are manoeuvering at low level and distraction is a factor. (Loss of control in turbulence on approach or go-around also.)Thousands of hours did not stop one I witnessed. Plane a write-off but only minor injuries to the pilot. Human Factors there. Fly the plane. Nev

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Bass, I think it is essential for instructors to do this.

Oh yes, I fully agree with that one. Plenty real of stories of students being allowed too deep a stall and the aircraft spinning unintentional.