When to intervene

[Spriteah]

I'd like to throw one out to the masses here.

 

Recently and with respect we have lost an ultralight pilot from a possible failure of plane structure. That is part of a current investigation so I have no want to discuss that particular incident. With that in mind it appears he may have been punishing his plane for some time.

 

What I would like to discuss is when do you decide that a fellow RAA member is doing the wrong thing? When and how do your intervene? And what if any has been the results?.

 

I can give an example:

 

A person I know was tending to fly in non VMC/VFR suitable conditions. I accept that sometimes pilots might think the skys are ok but get up only to find they are not. I have done that myself. The person I am talking about would regularly taxi out and get to the air when clearly it was not legal.

 

Action: I spoke to the person about my concerns. I was challenged (nice way to say attacked). However the person does not push the boundary's anymore, at least when Im about.

 

Result: Hopefully keeping someone alive and keeping up the better name of RAA Pilots.

 

Does anyone else have anything to share?

 

Jim

 

 

[blueshed]

Hi Jim

 

can be tough, however looks like you have done the right thing! Sometimes we do need other peope to just give us a bit of jog! Yes it can be a challenge to take someone aside and share your concerns, just to have them abuse you. If they are human at some stage hopefully they will return and accept what you have done for them and appolagise.

 

Have had some "challenges" ones self, have found it good on some occasions to talk it through with our Operations Manager, just to help make sure I am on track, before disscussing it with the person we feel has been pushing the boundries.

 

If you really feel it totally falls on deaf ears, then it may possibly be the time to share the full story with our Ops Manager and let him deal with it! It's one of the things he is there for!

 

You have done well, Keep it Up!

 

 

[monty]

Hi Jim,

 

Many years ago a very good mate of mine had an accident in his aircraft. He did a back yard fix himself because he could not afford to fix it properly and kept on mustering in it. I told him of my concerns many times, I also told his family. 3 months later he was dead. I didn't know about CASSA or RA back then or I would have reported him. He may still be alive today if I did. I think we have a moral obligation to tell the person of your concerns and let them fix it, but if they don't we should do what ever it takes to stop them killing themselves or someone else or both.

 

Just MY opinion though not everyone will agree.

 

Monty

 

 

[seb7701]

Monty, you are spot on IMO.

 

In my line of work, a subtle one to one is the first port of call, but if that fails, then it is may well be necessary to go to the next level.

 

If you see someone modifying the rules for themselves, you simply need to think to yourself "What is the worst that could happen here - could someone be hurt or worse? If you answer is yes, then you need to speak to someone. There are plenty of options for us without having to go straight into combat mode. And yes, you might just save someone from themselves!!

 

 

[F22]

I have never thought of these sort of situations ever happening until now.

 

 

[Tomo]

I guess I'm a fairly 'out there' type person in a way... so if it is plane (plain) dangerous I would generally tell them one way or another.

 

If they flair up and try and defend themselves, you know they already know, and are obviously living on the edge, if they listen and take an interest you know they respect life!

 

Some peoples people skills are better than others, but if you can get the word out there, I guess you have done your bit, the rest is up to them to either stop, consider and take a look at what is being talked about... or they can just blast off and the rest is up to them. As long as they don't endanger others. Which is an issue at times I guess.

 

As a mechanic we often have to tell people I wouldn't use that, or you aren't road worthy and shouldn't drive this the way it is. Most times they listen.

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Folks,

 

The latest version of the ATSB Confidential Incident Reporting System really is confidential, read about it on the ATSB web site. Then consider using it.

 

Except in extremely limited circumstances, CASA does not get involved.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Yenn]

Just remember that the pilot who challenges you "abuses you" when you chat him for being stupid is acting normally. It is ususl to find idiots prefer to be abusive rather than admit their fault and thank you for helping them. The more abusive I find is the one most at fault.

 

 

[Vorticity]

I have emailed the ops manager regarding a pilots behaviour and even attached a video. I had already spoken with the pilot who promptly informed me that I nor anyone else knew what we were talking about. I emailed RAAus due to the number of locals complaining to me as I flew 'one of those ultralights'.

 

I had no response from RAAus and the pilot just got worse.

 

 

[facthunter]

The System and Reporting.

 

Good subject Jim........ Whistleblowers often do not fare well in a system. You don't just show up an individual , but reflect on the inadequacy of the administrator or organisation whose job it is to "manage".

 

Tomo, you are a fair minded bloke, but these people do not just go away and do themselves harm and as long as it does not affect others... etc..etc.... IT AFFECTS ALL OF US... We ALL get cast in the same light and have our privileges reduced. Hasn't this just happened? Where I am in my aviation career now, I could write a very thick book. I will make one observation here, and it is a generalisation directed at no-one in particular. People with a surfboard mentality to aviation should stay with surfboards. Continued safe participation/exposure in/to aviation requires a discipline that not all people possess. Nev

 

 

[Tomo]

IT AFFECTS ALL OF US... We ALL get cast in the same light and have our privileges reduced.

True, thanks Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Good subject Jim........ Whistleblowers often do not fare well in a system. You don't just show up an individual , but reflect on the inadequacy of the administrator or organisation whose job it is to "manage".Tomo, you are a fair minded bloke, but these people do not just go away and do themselves harm and as long as it does not affect others... etc..etc.... IT AFFECTS ALL OF US... We ALL get cast in the same light and have our privileges reduced. Hasn't this just happened? Where I am in my aviation career now, I could write a very thick book. I will make one observation here, and it is a generalisation directed at no-one in particular. People with a surfboard mentality to aviation should stay with surfboards. Continued safe participation/exposure in/to aviation requires a discipline that not all people possess. Nev

I am 100% in total agreement with Nev.(like usual) Also Mr Hamiltons post is a great way of letting the powers that be, what is going on. I personally like that way on dealing with a rogue pilot.But having said that i have done it by other means, years ago-when that way didnt excist-i have more than one occasion (twice)"had a go at a guy, verbally. The pilots thought they new better, one is now dead( ultralight acident doing aeros), and one lost his licence.Just to make things clear, this happen years ago, around 10 or so years ago. No body wants to be a dobber, or get involved, but sometimes it has to be done.It is alot easier if a group of guys (pilots) approach a individual doing the wrong thing, and have a talk to them.Unfortunately they normaly dont listen to reason.I personally spend six days at a aircraft crash picking up body parts of what was left of the two crew, it wasnt a pretty site. FLY SAFE

 

 

[djpacro]

This problem is common to most aspects of aviation and if anyone had a easy solution we'd know about it. Need to change the whole culture of the people involved which is not easy.

 

The Pilot's Lounge #122: We Worry About the Wrong Things, and It's Killing Us

 

I've tried various techniques over the years - never been punched in the nose yet but certainly been abused after commenting on observations of very dangerous attitudes; the occasional long quiet chat seemed to have some effect; sometimes ignored by organisations which should be taking action; used the ATSB system once with some good effect (I chose not to be anonymous and CASA became involved). Heard about unsafe practice from a friend here recently and made a comment on Facebook - the guy eventually heard about it and we had a long telecon - I don't think he'll change but maybe he'll think about it, I'll hear soon enough. I don't expect a high success rate but I'd certainly like to avoid funerals in future.

 

AOPA (USA) and the FAA put a lot of effort into things like Pilot Proficiency Programs. QBE here rebates the cost of attending programs like this. Probably preaching to the converted though.

 

People with a surfboard mentality to aviation should stay with surfboards.

I'm going to frame that.PS - Nev, I may get a ride in your old 7ECA soon.

 

 

[Powerin]

Where I am in my aviation career now, I could write a very thick book. Nev

Quick off topic comment - Nev, you should write a book! Thick or otherwise I bet there's a lot of us here that would buy it, read it and benefit from it.

 

Peter

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Intervene, been there done that probably will again. And a smack in the face is as good as a kiss.

 

Best response i have seen when someone did something really stupidly dangerous was when he did it in front of his insurance provider. he just walked up and informed him his policy was cancelled. Brilliant.

 

Always best to catch them offguard rather than get up them as soon as they step out of the aircraft wait untill later at days end or in the bar. If a quiet word gets a loudmouth response take it in stride your message will have sunk in.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

I totally agree Fact Hunter...

 

 

[facthunter]

Writing Books.

 

Thanks for the comments, but I would have to publish it posthumously. I am sure the lawyers (the hired guns), would be lining up. Nev

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

People with a surfboard mentality to aviation should stay with surfboards. Continued safe participation/exposure in/to aviation requires a discipline that not all people possess. Nev

T'was ever thus! .. I was involved in the very earliest days of the HGFA and we saw a lot of people who thought they were flying a souped up surfboard (as we said at the time) and that the rules were for others. We were all individual pilots, owned our own a/c and had no strong club or school affiliations .. a situation not unlike that for many in our community today.

You are right about the need for knowledge and self discipline, especially if you "own your own".

 

Where the problem arises, IMHO, is that most pilots are (usually quietly) proud of their flying skills and constantly strive to improve them, but occasionally the urge to show off or the enthusiasm for improvement, or overconfidence (or all three) pushes us beyond our legal and capability boundaries. Usually, if we have not pushed too hard, we survive and learn, but occasionally, tragedy happens. If the pushing the boundary goes too far too often, tragedy is almost inevitable .....

 

I don't suppose this is new to anyone. I know I have done silly things in the past, sometimes errors of omission, occasionally errors of commisssion, but thankfully I survived and the frights I recieved overcame the urge to do it again! And I don't suppose I'm alone. I just hope I've learn't my lessons .... and I now aim to make sure my superior airmanship keeps me out of situations where my superior skill as a pilot (LOL) is needed for survival!

 

There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but VERY few old & bold pilots!.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

Fact hunter, What about a Nom de Plume, Pseudonym... Something like Aaah,

 

A. Justinthefacts..

 

Or,

 

Neville Getothetruth..

 

But seriously RAAUS is meant to be a self managed organisation.

 

If pilots are too scared of being threatened if they question a piolts actions or are just too cynical to help the others see the error of their ways and fly safely then CASA will eventually have do it for us...

 

I have seen the social effects on people who dare to say something to the "heroes".These people of principle are then ostracised and whispered about amongst the fraternity..

 

This bullying behaviour is a sad indictment of the more gutless,selfish and shallow members of our society.

 

And noone likes a dobber, but helping people to see the error of their ways (and keep them alive!) is the only way RAAUS will remain extant!

 

The rogue behaviours present in people who are Pilots too, will, by their selfish actions affect the future of Sport Aviation whether RAAUS or GA..

 

People are watching, aren't they Bill...

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

Simple rules for "Interventions"

 

1/. Rigorously examine your motivations before doing so. Are you acting out of spite, hatred or revenge? If so, talk it over wth other people (experienced pilots and/or safety people) first.

 

2/. If it is a friend, be fearless in approaching them to point out that [behaviour X] is a problem for [Reason A].

 

3/. Escalate the language for the liklihood and risk, eg:

 

"Hey listen, that low pass you made looked great but Don't do it over my place again"

 

"Hey listen, that low pass scared a few people and they're questioning our club/school's safety record. Better cut it out eh?"

 

"Hey I saw you make that low pass in your aircraft in front of the club - a heap of your students saw it. You are sending the wrong message"

 

"...well let me put it this way, because of that I wouldn't let my wife fly with you. It's unacceptable."

 

4/. Anyone holding a delegation or approval from RAAus or CASA has a higher duty of care. If you are a CFI, a Chief Pilot or an approved testing officer I believe you MUST intervene or speak up when you see unsafe acts.

 

5/. If you fall within 4/. and speaking directly to the miscreant has no effect, I believe you are obliged to take the matter further if and only if you believe there is a genuine threat to safety.

 

 

[sfGnome]

I heard an interesting story on Radio National's Science show this week about the Dunning-Kreuger effect. Basically, these blokes have shown that people who are bad at something tend to believe the opposite, whereas people who are good at something are generally dissatisfied with their capability.

 

They had a group sit a bunch of logic tests, and then asked them to say where they thought they'd rank. The best thought they'd be down the scale, while the worst thought they were right up the top. The really scary part was that when they were shown the right answers, the worst revised their estimated ranking even higher. In other words, even when they saw the right answers, they still didn't have a clue that they didn't have a clue!

 

What's the relevance to the thread? The heroes who think they're fantastic (and aren't) aren't likely to believe you because they don't know that they don't know. Sad, but I have a horrible feeling that it's probably true.

 

The other corollary is, of course, that if you think that your flying could do with some polishing, then you're probably flying better than the ones who think they're fine... :)

 

 

[monty]

Thanks Gnome,

 

So true I have seen this so much in life. There is a difference between striving to be the best you can and thinking you are the best there is. I suppose that is just some peoples make up.

 

Monty

 

 

[Tomo]

The heroes who think they're fantastic (and aren't) aren't likely to believe you because they don't know that they don't know.

And because they think they know it all, they don't need/want to know anymore from anyone else... so they continue on in their not knowing that they don't know it all.

 

The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

 

 

[monty]

Tomo,

 

I am now 50 still pretty young at least I feel that way, I don't think we can know enough about anything until the day we die, no matter how good we are or think we are. I am a Safety officer and a trainer and I see these people all the time. They don't know that they don't know and you can't tell them.

 

Fly Safe

 

Monty

 

 

[facthunter]

All the Above.

 

Gnome, what you say is true. I could cite you many examples. What do we do about it?

 

In airlines and the military, they are gotten rid of. (perhaps not all, but most). In a two-crew situation, the incompetant pilot cannot mask his/her shortcomings especially in a critical situation.

 

Once given a certificate our people go out their separate ways and do a BFR every 2 years, and some can put on a good show for that occasion. Afterwards they revert to their old ways. I would suggest that most experienced instructors would know when a pilot is marginal who he is training.

 

IF he does not really make the grade and kills/injures himself and others later, what responsibility rests with the instructor? Quite a lot I would suggest.

 

Of course what would happen is that the student would go somewhere else and spend some more money and get passed. The Answer? ..... Nev