Question about circuit givewayness

[Tomo]

Ok, so what would you do if I joined Downwind for 01 and Fred joined crosswind for 01. All is good with the world, but we discover we are on intercepting paths... who how and what do you do to give way to each other?

 

Hopefully we would have worked it so it wouldn't intercept, but it's happening, so who goes where? I on downwind shouldn't turn right (no right hand turns) doing a lefty would only put me in pretty close proximity to Fred on crosswind. Fred shouldn't do any right hand turns either, so the only thing that could be done would be for Fred on crosswind to do a 360 orbit and try again?

 

Is that what happens? According to the rules of the air, you give way to aircraft on your right, so those on crosswind give way to downwind aircraft.... but how? where do they go? is doing a left orbit over the strip done? That is what I would do, so am I on the right track?

 

Simple I guess, but I am just curious.

 

 

[GraemeK]

I reckon the aircraft joining on crosswind has to give way, both because you're on his right and also he's joining the circuit, while you're already established in the circuit.

 

But as you say, how? Common sense would say turn right I guess - it could be argued he's not technically in the circuit until he actually turns downwind, so should be OK - plus he's over the runway @ 1000' so should be clear of traffic taking off (but not necessarily, of course).

 

Interesting question is when circuits are right hand. In that case, the aircraft established on downwind has the other on his right and should give way - but equally the joining aircraft should give way to the one already in the circuit!

 

Again, guess the answer is try to avoid it happening in the first place through situational awareness, if it does happen, allow common sense to prevail .....

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

The golden rule is "don't bend the metal"! You always have height to play with and you can use the radio to advise your intended action ...... but if Fred didn't hear your downwind call, I guess he might miss your call again .... Personally, I would probably deviate right and descend sharply keeping him in sight so as to establish positive separation and then attempt to establish communication ... aviate, navigate, communicate.

 

 

[Guest 172M]

See and avoid is not rocket science, irrespective of where you are and they are in the circuit and irrespective of how that happened, the leading aircraft must have right of way, as you can guess the chance of them seeing you is slim at best! Some of us have been or will be if you fly OCTA been cut off (usually not intentionally I hope) If separation is a problem S.O.P. should be clear(eyeball) yourself to the opposite circuit direction, broadcast your intention to contra orbit on the leg and rejoin the leg when safe to do so (with regard to entrail traffic)

 

The situation is little different in class D Airspace and up except you will have someone advising you on separation.... err sometimes!! (still pays to look through the perspex):hittinghead:

 

 

[Yenn]

Give way to the right prevails, but in RH circuits it would be contra indicated, but it still applies. You should be able to see aircraft on downwind when you are entering the pattern from any direction.

 

 

[Guest 172M]

We are not talkinig about about Contra Left or Right , we are talking about human nature and rules.Have you always (on the ground) stopped at a Stop sign, or rolled thru.?..... we all have,and why ..? There was nothing coming!!! Ergo the theory of flight, "always expect the unexpected!" Yep you need to fly for yourself and every other "Tossa" that shares your piece of blue with you, if you don't ,the Sword of Thor will eventually top you!.:yin_yan:

 

 

[shags_j]

I'd agree with destiny flyer on what shoudl have happened (also why wouldn't he just come off the throttle a little also to increase that seperation?).

 

But yes I have the same rules in the air as the road, don't trust the other guy coming towards you.

 

 

[Thx1137]

I slot in behind any aircraft that is on downwind. I made a dead-side descending call yesterday and a cub piped up that he was on a (very) long downwind. Not a problem, I just made my descending turn a fair bit wider, found him, then slotted in behind.

 

As an aside, I am glad he said something because no way would I have though he was on downwind!

 

I have seen, on other occasions, people that have done a quick midfield join with a short downwind, base and final to cut in front but I reckon that is rude besides just being wrong.

 

 

[shags_j]

If you are ever in doubt for circuit joining in particular parts of the circuit refer to the diagram page 11 (13 in adobe) in here: http://www.raa.asn.au/comms/caap_166-1_166-2.pdf

 

I love this diagram. I know it doesn't discuss right of way but it's good re: what THX is talking about.

 

 

[Peiler]

I actually experienced this exact scenario on Sunday. We were joining on crosswind, and new there was one other plane doing circuits, but they hadn't made a downwind call. We probably should have asked for info from them at this point. However, we did a solide bit of looking and spotted them about 100ft higher and maybe 750 feet away. We dived down to generate separation, and extended the crosswind.

 

With no othe planes in the circuit, the instructor basically completed a 'wide' circuit and joined on base to provide time for the other plane to complete their circuit... not sure about what we should have done different here...

 

The instructor was off to make sure the other pilot remembers to make his calls!

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[Tomo]

Thanks for the responses guys, sounds like it's a "do what you have to do" type situation.

 

The reason I asked was because I was on a long-ish downwind (I stated that on the radio call) when I had another aircraft join on crosswind... I had him in my sights before he even made the call and we were getting all the more closer, I then made a "on downwind abeam the numbers" call - we had reasonable clearance, but it made me wonder where each of us would've went to avoid getting to close if our timing was different.

 

:thumb_up:

 

 

[Ultralights]

there is a difference with " Long downwind" and "joining downwind" if your downwind and still 2 miles from the airfield, then you are Joining downwind! downwind should start when your within the usual circuit pattern, its not uncommon to join crosswind above the Upwind runway threshold and then be told by another aircraft they are on long downwind and expect you to join behind them, even when they are 2 miles or more away from the upwind runway threshold. its just one of my little pet peives when flying from hoxton long ago.

 

 

[Spin]

A whole bunch of interesting posts on this thread. I think one of the tricks to harmonious circuits and flying in general, is to conform as far as possible to what the rest of the traffic is doing. Probably the biggest fright I received during my training was on climbing out after takeoff, about to turn crosswind with no other traffic in sight. Literally as I began rolling, a Cessna broadcast that he had joined on crosswind - and I couldn't see him! A flurry of radio calls established that his crosswind was perhaps a mile upwind of me and that he was neatly hidden beneath the cowling whilst I was climbing. Presuming that he had seen me and heard my previous pre-takeoff calls, I suppose he thought he was giving me sufficient space - but my concern is that his crosswind was a very different point in space from mine and didn't adequately communicate his position. I believe it is worth letting the other aircraft know that you have them in sight and what your intentions are in relation to them.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Just back from the CASA seminar on the 3 June changes where they covered this issue (who gives way in the circuit). The CASA guy said the circuit has right of way over anyone joining, eg straight in, joining base etc must give way to anyone already established in the circuit. So someone on late downwind about to turn base has right of way over someone joining base (who has to slow down or orbit or rethink his circuit entry).

 

However, they also read out something from the book of words that RECOMMENDS that lower class aircraft give way to higher class eg RPTs where safe and suitable to do so (my recollection of the blurb). I didn't get a chance to get the chapter and verse.

 

Sue

 

 

[sfGnome]

A couple of times when I was practising glide approaches, I'd call "...glide approach 20 from 2000..." and my instructor would pipe up "... and Cessna ABC, we have you in sight". It struck me at the time as a very useful bit of information, even if it isn't in the AIP list of standard calls. :)

 

 

[Guest rhysa]

I was in this situation for the first time last weekend, I was joining crosswind with an aircraft in the circuit on downwind. We could clearly see him, and so we turned slightly to the right on the crosswind so there was plenty of room for us to join in behind him. My instructor gave a call to the aircraft that we had him in sight and were joining behind. I was glad this happened as I wondered myself how it would work, and having done it now it all seems pretty simple and logical.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Just back from the CASA seminar on the 3 June changes where they covered this issue..<<Snipped>>

However, they also read out something from the book of words that RECOMMENDS that lower class aircraft give way to higher class eg RPTs where safe and suitable to do so (my recollection of the blurb). I didn't get a chance to get the chapter and verse.

 

Sue

Having the actual words in front of me.... It is in Section 11 of CAAP 166-2.

 

In Section 11.1 it says "Rules of the air regarding right of way and rules for the prevention of collisions should always be respected."

 

In Section 11.2, the words are "Pilots flying recreational or sport aircraft for their own enjoyment, or pilots flying GA aircraft for their own leisure, should consider giving way to aircraft being used for commerce, provided that the inconvenience to their own operation is not great and it can be done safely."

 

As such it is a suggestion that addresses Airmanship. IMHO

 

In Section 11.3 it says "Operators of commercial flights should not assume that a sport or recreational aircraft is being operated for purely non-commercial reasons..."

 

In other words, it would be a display of good Airmanship to allow the turbo prop commercial flight on a straight in approach, to land ahead of a much slower recreational flight established on downwind, but the pilot of the turbo prop should not expect it. Indeed, if the recreational aircraft did not have a radio (obviously not a CTAF® location), it would be very difficult to communicate the grant the invitation to land first.

 

The change to the airfields to be included as CTAF® as of 3rd June... all Certified and Registered, plus specifically identified locations, should minimise the situations where radios are not carried. One hopes that more people will use them as well as carrying them :raise_eyebrow:

 

I had a relevant situation a month or so ago when I was returning to the airfield with the intention of joining midfield crosswind and heard a small jet call taxiing. As I was just enjoying the late afternoon flight, it was no trouble to just do a few lazy orbits on the dead side and watch the jet takeoff before continuing to join the circuit. Co-incidentally, I had to wait at the holding point for the same aircraft to land about an hour earlier.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

"should" vs "must" or "shall"...

 

During my training and studying of the "rules of the air", I could not help notice a big difference from the way in which the "rules of the road" are framed.

 

While the road rules make definitive mandatory statements using the words "must" or "shall", the "rules of the air" seem to mostly use the term "should".

 

Add to this the caveat, also present in the "rules of the air", "nothing in this rule shall prevent the pilot from taking such action as is necessary for the safety of the aircraft and passengers." [paraphrased].

 

To me this says that the rules can be broken if the safety of the aircraft or passengers are at stake, however the PIC must be sure that doing so isn't jumping out of the fat and into the fire, to quote an old cliche. So the first resort is find an avoidance strategy to comply with the rules, and the second is to comply with as many rules as possible under the circumstances.

 

It does not mean that the rules are optional", although to my dismay, apparently some people have interpreted it in this way :-(

 

In a perfect world, these mitigations wouldn't be necessary, but misjudgements or breaking the rules by one pilot may result in a need to break the rules on the part of another.

 

All these theories work well with just two aircraft, but if the area is busy, then breaking any rules could snowball into chaos, thus the old driving maxim also comes into play. "Defensive driving", or in this case defensive flying. I always joke about the road rules and say that right of way is determined by the product of mass by velocity squared. At the end of the day, its no consolation that it wasn't technically your fault that your vehicle got bent! Someone earlier in this thread said it really well:thumb_up:

 

 

[Thx1137]

Right on. One situation I have heard of a few times is the aircraft cutting in because running a plane is expensive so the longer in the circuit, the more it costs... Talk about one of the all-time most useless excuses for endangering lives (you don't see the plane that hits you...) or at the very least, being rude.