Maptrax priced out of digital Air Services charts business

[Guest JRMobile]

Thanks Ross

 

I told them that me and 4,000 of my pilot friends await their reply.

Nice touch!!! :big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Of course that means no geo data.

There is such a thing as GeoPDF, so we might be in luck. Enterprising souls may, in the case of these being plain PDFs, be kind enough to provide tools to add geo data on to them.

When they say next release (6 months away!) are they also going to catch up on the WACs, which have no release cycle?

 

 

[ianboag]

That's soooooo novel. The pdfs were what they used to make available to MapTrax. A dollar gets you five that their contractor's GIS would spit out georeffed tiffs with a button push. But it's more fun for us to take charts where they have removed the georef info so we can - with some difficulty - recreate an imperfect version of it.

 

I think you asked here the wrong question.

 

Ask her is it OK for you to georef the pdf's and convert them to ozfx3, then sell THAT to people who (tell you they have) paid for the pdf's.

 

Expect an answer "soon" (before the year 20xx). Just because this is all buzzing round their smoko room doesn't mean anything will happen in less than a geological time span.

 

Probably best not to mention the bracketed bit. We're all honest here. The "selling" is just for your georef and conversion work.

 

IB

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Secret reply.

 

Well I'll be stuffed.

 

I got a prompt reply this morning, which prompted more questions, which also got a prompt reply. Out of courtesy, I asked if she'd mind if I posted the response here, and was told:

 

Every request we get for data is reviewed from a safety, regulatory and legal aspect, and is not just released without due consideration. I do not want any preconceived interpretation of our discussions and would therefore request that you do not release our discussion on the website.

 

 

 

She also took issue with my "4,000 pilot friends" remark.

 

Also, I noted your comment re the number of pilot friends that use navigational equipment, and their need for Airservices charts. Maptrax indicated that the numbers were quite low and that was why it was not financially viable for them.

 

 

 

Watch our online store for release dates.

 

 

So I could tell you the answers, but I'd have to shoot you. Why don't you all just email them at [email protected] and ask the questions again.

 

So, I won't release our discussion, but I owe you the salient points.

 

Basically, they won't be available until the next release cycle (if then). They won't retain the original geo-references because everyone wants them in different formats and they couldn't keep up with the technology. They will be in packs, not singular, at a similar price (plus some) to Maptrax.

 

You can scan the paper charts only if you buy a license from Airservices. Minimum fee is $275. You may also need an approval from CASA under CAR 233 (1)(h).

 

If you want to sell them to others, they are happy to discuss licensing you as they did Maptrax.

 

They are also worried about inadequately regulated provision of data being an increased safety risk - even though we cannot use this data as a primary means of navigation.

 

Nothing is in concrete yet (except their feet).

 

 

[ianboag]

Every request we get for data is reviewed from a safety, regulatory and legal aspect, and is not just released without due consideration.

 

 

Nice. Wow. I mean - ask yourself - how long has this "review" been going on? Will there still be enough oil to fly aircraft when the "due consideration" is done?

 

Maptrax indicated that the numbers were quite low and that was why it was not financially viable for them.

 

That's why Airservice are going to charge more than Maptrax did - for a product that they "manufacture" at essentially zero cost.

 

They won't retain the original geo-references because everyone wants them in different formats and they couldn't keep up with the technology.

 

 

More brilliant non-thinking! If they released one format with the georefs in it, people who wanted something else could convert the format and retain the (100% accurate because it came from the GIS) georeferencing. This way - if all you get is pdfs - you have to georef it by hand which is (a) a colossal waste of time and (b) inferior. You are trying to recreate (tediously by hand) a function that is in their mapmaking computer system and they have purposely withheld.

 

That a very "customer focussed" thing to do.

 

I wonder if Sentient have to do their own georeffing for their Airnav product or do AirServices give them something already georefed?

 

You can scan the paper charts only if you buy a license from Airservices. Minimum fee is $275.

 

 

Yeah right. Lots of people scan relevant bits from charts for when they are going somewhere. It's not hard to do and the result is easy to use in a cockpit. $275. Wow!

 

They are also worried about inadequately regulated provision of data being an increased safety risk - even though we cannot use this data as a primary means of navigation.

 

 

Who regulates what goes into TSO'd GPS's? And we should beleive that noone anywhere flies round with last year's wallpaper in the cockpit ... we must all be carrying the current sheets. Must be the case because I've not ever read of a prosecution for flying with out of date maps.

 

Slarti - we need to see the error of our ways here and accept that A1 sheets in the cockpit are the 100% accepted time-proven only safe way to use a map in flight. GPS's are an invention of the devil - one day the airlines will see the light and stop using them.

 

The technology they are really looking for is something that makes paper charts self-destruct on their expiry date. :-)

 

The CAR 233 thing is another red herring. It's for organisations that set themselves up as providers of aeronautical information. I almost had that laid on me for my plain-language-MET site in NZ. You would deal with that the same way that the GPS manufacturers do. Just write "not for navigational purposes" a few times so it displays reasonably prominently where a reasonable person can't miss it. Noone lays CAR 233 on Garmin or Lowrance.

 

IB

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Slarti - we need to see the error of our ways here and accept that A1 sheets in the cockpit are the 100% accepted time-proven only safe way to use a map in flight. GPS's are an invention of the devil - one day the airlines will see the light and stop using them.

Yep. That's what I've taken away from all this Ian. I'm throwing away all my GPS devices immediately.

 

 

[GaryH]

Slarti / Ian

 

Bear in mind that the A1 paper map is only guarenteed for one micro second per six month period, so that CASA may only recommend flight for that micro second ( with out indicating which particular micro second for fear of engendering litigation ).

 

GaryH:wasnt me:

 

 

[Thx1137]

Um. So they are going to provide maps that are less useful than the people they are replacing? that sounds about right.

 

Heaven forbid that we get the coordinates from the source. Much safer to try and retrofit it! <cough>

 

Frankly the "because everyone wants them in different formats and they couldn't keep up with the technology" is laughable if they are using any kind of real GIS system. It is trivial for us to export the data an almost any format needed. Where I work we can write a script that would output ALL the maps in a plenty of different formats at the press of a button. Surely their systems aren't that backward!

 

If they don't want to do it they should just say so instead of making excuses.

 

I have send off a polite message with some of the above points. It will be interesting to see the results.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Sounds like the only way forward is for someone to take the TOPO250K set from Geosciences Australia and make their own maps. This the data the ASA maps are based on.

 

The 250K set is free and the license expressly allows you to create derivative products and sell them.

 

 

[sleemanj]

You can scan the paper charts only if you buy a license from Airservices. Minimum fee is $275.

Well, they can try, but surely they wouldn't get far in the courts I expect... fair use if you own the paper to media-shift it to digital, surely.

 

 

[Gibbo]

Australian airspace and airstrip data in kml format. Seems fairly up to date but missing most of the class D airspace.

 

Welt2000

 

German website but translates well with google toolbar.

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

The CAR 233 thing is another red herring.

Ianboag,

 

Izzatso!! I suggest you actually read CAR 233, to see what it really says.

 

Regards,

 

PS: What goes into TSO GPS/FMCS databases is tightly regulated and all distributors are tightly licensed.

 

 

[ianboag]

Ianboag, Izzatso!! I suggest you actually read CAR 233, to see what it really says.

I have now. Rule Part 175 is something different. My error.

 

(1)(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, .... .

 

(3) An operator must keep a completed flight preparation form for a period of 6 months.

 

(4) An offence against subregulation (1), (2) or (3) is an offence of strict liability.

 

Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

 

I must look into this "flight preparation form" thing - we no doubt have the same rule in NZ. Then I suppose I should toddle down to the police, fess up and do my time like a man for repeated criminal transgression of sub-reg 3. All those Sunday afternoon local flights in my Jab and never a flight preparation form to be seen .... how unsafe is that!

 

I guess 1(h) covers AVMET. The pemet page is just a web page translation from gibberish to English. If I were more of a linguist I could have done one in Spanish or French. I am not a weather data provider - that requires certification and approval by a person in writing. As an aside, if CASA/AirServices are anything like CAA/Airways, they wouldn't know where to start in certifying or approving plain language AVMET. There's no CAR or ICAO standard or anything else for it so they would have to make it all up from scratch. Think 5 years if they decided tomorrow to do it.

 

Alternatively they could just do it - like in Canada where the TAFs/METARs from NavCanada (the AirServices equivalent) come as codes and optional English.

 

Ianboag, What goes into TSO GPS/FMCS databases is tightly regulated and all distributors are tightly licensed.

Fair enough. I didn't know that. TSO C129 defines the gear, but who regulates/licences the maps?

 

The only GPS's I have ever seen are the non-TSO'd units (Garmin x9x) with the Jeppesen-crafted skeletal moving maps and airspace pictures. You find them in lots of recreational aircraft. Being non-TSO'd they are never used for any function related to navigation except as a backup in case of chart failure [see CAR233 subregulation 1(h)].

 

:-)

 

 

[Cosmick]

Two months down the track, has anyone heard of any developments ??

 

 

[Guest MapTrax]

Possibilities

 

We are working on some options for both NZ and Australian aero charts.... a bit too early to announce anything firm yet.

 

I will be honest, and say that the prices of the Chart Packs (bundles) may have to increase to make it worth our while, but we will try to hold the cost of the individual charts the same.

 

Regards

 

Neil

 

Manager - MapTrax Pty Ltd.

 

 

[Cosmick]

Music to my ears - Thanks for the feedback Neil

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Hopefully they will be more reasonably priced now that Airservices has geo referenced files available:

 

Airservices Australia - Electronic Data Sales

 

 

[Admin]

Ask them yourself Bas as they now support this site and all its members...they are a Supplier Member here

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Downloadable charts?

 

I sent off an email to Maptrax on their decision to restock aero charts:

 

I read on the Recreational Flying forum that you are now restockingaeronautical charts - CONGRATULATIONS!!!

It would be really good if you can make these charts available for

 

downloading. I recently had to plan a navigation exercise at short notice

 

where I didn't have a WAC available - it would have been great to download

 

that chart as a PDF or Adobe Illustrator and print it out to scale. I

 

would prefer to download charts and print them out rather than wait for a

 

paper chart in the mail.

Does anyone else think it would be useful to have downloadable charts? How can they be formatted so as to print them out to scale on a colour inkjet?

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I don't have OziExplorer and have no intention of buying any flight planning software. I'm happy with PDF though.

 

 

[Guest MapTrax]

Thought I would chime in with some info...

 

When we release the new charts they will be in ECW, Geo-TIFF, OZfx3 and PDF format.

 

By law, none of our charts can be used for actual "Air Navigation", since we have changed them from their original paper format, which is the only certified mapping available (except for Jeppesen of course). Unfortunately the cost and effort required to go through the approval process, plus the added liability that this places on us, makes it un-appealing for us to head down this path.

 

Using the PDF and printing them out is not a problem... the problem is ensuring you can accurately measure on the printouts. Previously the charts we produced didn't have the scale on them, so any manipulation we performed to the charts could easily have altered the scale, and what you thought you were measuring as 1nm could easily have been wrong. We are yet to see the new "Geo-referenced" data from ASA, so I have no idea as to the quality, or what is even included on the images e.g. scales, notes etc.

 

For doing any measurement with electronic charts, we would recommend using a mapping program like OziExplorer, or Global Mapper, which uses the geo-referncing of the chart to ensure accurate measurement. The other beauty of this, is you can lay out flight paths and alternates as an overlay, and then print them out with the chart, without altering the base chart.

 

As a note of interest.... the Ozi Explorer guy's are working on an Android version of OziExplorer at the moment... which would work great on a unit like the Samsung Galaxy tablet. Once they have completed the Android version, they will re-use a lot of the code to produce an iPhone/iPad version. This should make OziExplorer a lot more accessible on a wider range of phones and hand-held devices than whats around currently.

 

Happy to answer any questions on digital Mapping.... And I will put a post in the Suppliers forum shortly about our NZ charts.

 

Cheers

 

Neil - MapTrax

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Ahh ... I obviously don't understand the limitations of digital mapping. Here's me thinking that, instead of mail ordering charts for flight planning and waiting a week for them, I could just download, print out and do flight planning at the drop of a hat.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Ahh ... I obviously don't understand the limitations of digital mapping.

This stuff is possible, it's just not easy. Really, it is no different from a photographer printing to exact sizes on a large inkjet printer. It is a matter of being able to control the software that does this printing enough to offset any scaling the printer does. Just opening an PDF in Adobe Reader an pressing print won't do it.

Plus, if you want the whole chart at the full size, you need a big printer!

 

RAAF do this. Want a VTC? Just print it out on the very wide roll-paper printer.

 

The maps MapTrax will provide would be perfectly capable of doing this, it's the software needed to do it that is the weakest link. That and you need to know what you are doing when setting up and calibrating the printer and software!

 

 

[Tracktop]

For Android users try OruxMaps program ( free ) works now and with an intermediate program (OruxMapsDesktop does a quick conversion) will easily use you Maptrax calibrated Oziexplorer map files to display real time moving map chart on your phone [ NOT FOR NAVIGATION OR INFLIGHT USE :scratch head:] - be it an out dated map version - until Neil produces again anyway.

 

Easy and quick to achieve and seems to work fine.

 

I think Maverick and others may also accept the converted Maptrax files as well, but haven't tried it yet.

 

Neil - Maybe it's worth looking at providing the required files on the CD as well?

 

It will be interesting to see how Oziexplorer goes on the android phone - hope my OziexplorerCE licence is carried over for this as the phone now replaces the satnav device.