J160c - c152

[sseeker]

Hi everyone,

 

In a couple of weeks I'm doing a spins lesson at the Royal Aero Club of WA in a C152, basically what I'm after is how different is the C152 from the J160C? Some people say that if you can fly a Jabiru you can fly almost anything within its class & as far as I'm aware the C152 is pretty close apart from weight... I've got only 4 hours GA but almost 30 hours RA-Aus with 1.7 command RA-Aus. The reason I want to do spins is so I can get a feel of what it's like, I know the recovery procedure but it always helps to put it into practice.

 

I want to try and know the aircrafts limits, speeds, handling etc so I can fly it well. Combined with my current knowledge and a bit of research I think the instructor will be happy with an RA-Aus trained pilot ;)

 

-Andrew

 

 

[facthunter]

C-152 aerobat.

 

These do not perform very well especially if you are both "large" people. Get the climb speed right for the weight. I know of one (and there may be others) where the rudder/Fin actually, was bent over during the spin recovery reason they don't actually want to stay in a spin and come out of it by themselves. IF the speed builds up and you don't centre the rudder ( you have to be a bit thick or confused at least) you can overload it,

 

The more I think about this, I don't really think the 152 is a good idea for spin training. A Victa or a Pitts would be much more benefit to you even if it costs a bit more. Just my opinion. Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

This is a C152A FYI. They want close to $450/hr for the Tiger Moth at Jandakot so I'd hate to see what someone wants for a Pitts ;) Reason I picked the 152 is because I wanted something that was similar to the Jab.

 

EDIT

 

Hi Andrew,C150/152 and C172 are all certified for spin and spin recovery and almost all training schools have a C150/152.

Spin training in the 150 / 152 is actually quite good, I have done lots of it over the years. However as Facthunter has stated and I have pointed out in earlier posts the C150 tends to come out of the spin after about 2 to 3 rotations in the normal practice of holding neutral aileron full back stick and full rudder and idle power with a normal stall entry. They will quickly accelerate into a spiral dive and that is obvious if the airspeed is climbing and given they spin virtually vertically nose down, that can happen very quickly. You would have to be a dick head to get it wrong and given you will have an instructor with you, you will be fine and have an absolute ball.

 

The C150 is a docile machine and very forgiving of very bad landings, they teach you how to hold off. I haven't flown a Jab, but about to soon. From what I have been told the C150/152 is easier to fly than the Jab and from what I have seen I would have to agree.

 

You will have a ball mate, go for it and let us know how you go.

 

David

Sorry mate just saw your post, thanks for the feedback. Should be a lot of fun!

 

-Andrew

 

 

[jcamp]

Hi everyone,In a couple of weeks I'm doing a spins lesson at the Royal Aero Club of WA in a C152, basically what I'm after is how different is the C152 from the J160C?

C152 Pretty docile, need to deliberately enter the spin.

 

J160C Only spin experience was accidental in go around config (full flap, power). Difficult to see how you could accidently stall it like that but the first time I stalled it in that config I was concentrating on airspeed for the stall and there was a sharp break into at least an incipient spin and did about a 1/4 turn before catching it loosing several hundred feet. Next stop spin brushup in a C152. Subsequent go round stalls faster footwork no problem. Note all of this was above 3000 AGL and at 50 ft you would be a statistic.

 

Hint - If you normally fly a J160, fly the C152 from the RHS so left hand for the throttle and right hand for the stick/wheel.

 

 

[djpacro]

sseeker, google will find the info you seek on the 152, for example, this extract from a POM includes the section on spinning.

 

Personally, I think the Cessna 152 is a great little trainer. RACWA have a lot of them and the few instructors I have met from there know their stuff.

 

 

[sseeker]

Yeah I agree, they're not bad. A bit slow but

 

-Andrew

 

 

[leestanley]

I must admit I found the transition from Jab to 152/172 more difficult than I anticipated/ was led to believe it would be...

 

Toe brakes/steering made ground handling more challenging initially and the wheel in place of the column on the jab felt unnatural to me... also (surprisingly) relying on my left hand doing most of the work in the Cessna was disconcerting at first...

 

Of course you get the hang of it eventually but I certainly don't subscribe to the 'if you can fly a jab you can fly anything' line!

 

Just my experience, of course :)

 

Lee.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I must admit I found the transition from Jab to 152/172 more difficult than I anticipated/ was led to believe it would be...Toe brakes/steering made ground handling more challenging initially and the wheel in place of the column on the jab felt unnatural to me... also (surprisingly) relying on my left hand doing most of the work in the Cessna was disconcerting at first...

 

Of course you get the hang of it eventually but I certainly don't subscribe to the 'if you can fly a jab you can fly anything' line!

 

Just my experience, of course :)

 

Lee.

I would agree Lee, there isnt a "five minute conversion", i went from the LSA 55, to the Piper Archer, from Caloundra to Archerfield.It still took around 4/5 hours to do. It takes a bit of time to get the head around, the different weight of the a/c, where the switches are located, foot braking as you have already said etc. The general feel of the a/c, how she generaly handles. I also had the learn GAAP procedures, where the inbound reporting points are etc.Still have to go through climbing/decending, stalls, steep turns, the different landing configuations etc etc. It isnt harder or anything, but it is different.Takes time to learn.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Fellas, please refrain from promoting Jab's for spin training in the students thread. Jabs are not certified for spinning. Period. No matter where the cofg is.

 

 

[Yenn]

When i learnt tpo fly, spins were not allowed in the C150 and I thought that the C152 was the same. All we could do were incipient spins.

 

 

[facthunter]

Spins in C-152.

 

Incipient only in C-150/152. The aerobat is different (just to what extent I am not sure in detail) but it IS certified for limited aerobatics.

 

Merv, I must have missed something. Has anyone suggested doing aero's in a Jab? I have always supported the idea of being trained (or experiencing) EMT or unusual attitude recovery in the PROPER aircraft, with a QUALIFIED instructor.. Not making it compulsory but I am very much in favour of it.

 

I would hate to be flying without having done it. (Has a post been deleted?) Cheers.. Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Nev,

 

It's on the first page in a users post, I won't name the user but just take a look.

 

By the way I appreciate everyones opinion, obviously it's going to be something different but I'm actually really looking forward to it. Not just the spins, but flying something I haven't flown in a year.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

 

[djpacro]

For info, as you can see in this Flight International article from 1978 based on a Cessna publication, all variants of the 150, from the F at least, and 152 were approved for spinning.

 

 

[facthunter]

Info.

 

thanks DJP. I stopped flying training with them well before that. Still have difficulty thinking that an aircraft with such docile characteristics.(wing wash-out fairly nose heavy,etc) would be a very convincing spinner. It would need more up elevator than I remember they had. I didn't think my Citabria was a good spin trainer either as it has "frise" ailerons which do funny things when you apply out of spin aileron. nev

 

 

[jcamp]

It would need more up elevator than I remember they had.

Need to work at getting one into a spin but they will.

 

Thought it still is the case in Oz that only the Aerobats are OK for spin training - as usual with aero's it's not the exercise that's the problem but the f**up and/or f***d recovery that is the problem.

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi David,

 

I can confirm that the testing Jabs have been spun properly - not sure what happened after that though.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

 

[GraemeK]

it concerns me that manufacturers make no comment other than to say "No intentional spins"

As sseeker points out, Jabiru did spin testing (maybe not as extensive as the Flycatcher though) - there's some video on their website.

 

I would have thought some degree of spin testing ought to be conducted - if only because the "No Intentional Spins" placard won't prevent them happening!

 

 

[Spin]

I guess I am one of the lucky ones who was required to do spin training as part of my PPL. I think I eventually spun each and every one of the C150 and C152's, including an aerobat, that the school had. Some were definitely easier than others to get into a spin, probably a question of rigging, one in particular was very partial to dropping its left wing quite dramatically in a stall - add rudder in that direction and away she went.

 

Well worthwhile I believe. Enjoy it and keep us posted.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Nev.

 

Sorry took so long. No, post's havn't been removed. Ive learned better then to single people out, but its all there...still....Great stuff in this thread otherwise.

 

cheers

 

 

[djpacro]

DJP and Nev ..... What are your thoughts on that.David.

The Skycatcher simply did the standard test matrix required for intentional spins. At some stage they got Bihrle Applied Research involved to do some model tests and assist in developing the design. I don't have any inside info despite visiting BAR around that time (I did some work with these guys many years ago) but my guess is that they had the model on a rotary balance in the vertical tunnel at NASA Langley then calculated the spin modes.

Manufacturers of certified aeroplanes (not seeking approval for intentional spins) must do some spin testing - from a one turn spin nominally. CASA allows for Experimental R&D CofA for this purpose.

 

It is easier to get the 150 to spin as it has a more aft cg than the 152. For the 152 I carry a bit of power to make the elevator more effective then close the throttle once it is in the fully developed spin. Like many types it takes a specific deliberate action when practicing spins with the standard entry (incidentally, I always enter a few knots prior to the stall to ensure a positive and consistent entry - avoids the situation right at the stall that Spin mentioned) but there are some configurations and situations where it will spin with little provocation - and it has killed students.

 

It is not uncommon for an instructor trainee to swear at me as I unexpectedly and swiftly have the aeroplane in a fast rotating spin. By the time they realise what is happening, move their hands to the controls, think about what they need to do and then do it there is significant height loss so they understand that stall/spin avoidance is essential. As Nev said for the Citabria, ailerons make it do "funny" things. Ailerons do "funny" things in some other types that I spin but the opposite effect so I'm always wary of playing around with ailerons.

 

 

[facthunter]

Technique.

 

Most of my spinning was done in the Chipmunk and DH-82. The out of spin aileron application made a quicker spin entry and it didn't buffet and carry on for as long. It also represents the natural instinct to try and pick up the dropped wing with aileron that the uninitiated pilots will do. ALL aeroplanes will bite at some stage if you get the right conditions, ever the most normally docile and you can get lulled into a false sense of security. Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi everyone,

 

Well today was the day, I went down to Jandakot and guess what? XXXXty weather so no spinning for me... I did 1.1hrs of flying in the C152, which included a PFL, 1x Clean Stall & 1x landing config stall, 45 and 60 degree steep turns & my graceful departure from the Earth (as John King would say). I can confirm, after 26.7 hours dual and 2.2 hours solo in the Jabiru, you should be able to fly a C152A.

 

I took out VH-RWQ from the Royal Aero Club of WA, I did the preflight, hopped in and went through the endless checklist to start her up. She coughed, spluttered and started and after 4,600 hours you'd expect her too. Well the nerves started because I could no longer rest my hand on the lovely hand brake like in the Jab, it was all in the feet. After a bit of swerving around I got the hang of it, we arrived at the run up bay, did our run ups and lined up... Takeoff was rather weird because the rudder pedals are really light, departed Jandakot via Yangebup Lake and then to Lake Thomson. Begun our steep turns, not that hard... Went over to the training paddock, did a PFL and she was impressed... Went over to a forrest and did some stalls (yeah I thought it was kinda weird that she wanted to do stalls over the top of a forrest at 3500ft) and there was no comments there either, apart from 'good' lol. Came back into Jandakot via Six South then Forrestdale Lake, instructor let me do absolutely everything from joining the circuit to landing, and the landing wasn't bad either! A bit off center but I touched twice (softly)

 

All up it was a good flight, easy aircraft to fly and I'll go back again to do spins in the near future...

 

-Andrew

 

 

[pudestcon]

Goodonya Andrew,

 

I live 5 mins from Jandakot under the circuit and have only flown there once - probably 10 years ago in a Gazelle. Did a great landing I thought but the drongo instructor couldn't stop laughing, but no explanation, debrief or anything so I didn't go back again. Glad to hear you were satisfied with your flight and will return - good stuff.

 

Pud

 

 

[djpacro]

Well today was the day, I went down to Jandakot and guess what? XXXXty weather so no spinning for me...

I'm looking forward to your next report on spinning but in the meantime I was just wondering whether you had the option to cancel as you specifically wanted to do spinning?

[Tomo]

Fantastic news Sseeker, good to show them what we're made of! :thumb_up:

 

Did a great landing I thought but the drongo instructor couldn't stop laughing, but no explanation,

I reckon it was thems sunnies...