Landing on Dirt Strips

[pudestcon]

PudIf you draw a blank with Pacific Flyer or it gets too pricey, the TOSG magazine archive has all of Mr Hayes' notes, musings, instructions etc on the whys and wherefores of 3 pointing & wheeling. My page copies are available for loan should you want to peruse. You'll have to leave your spleen or one of you eyeballs as security against their return though.

cheers

 

Thanks Riley,

 

Not real sure I want to pop an eyeball just yet but I'll keep it in mind. In the meantime I'll take your suggestion and look in the TOSG archives.

 

I still intend visiting at Bindoon as soon as I can get some free time.

 

Did you sell your Thruster and hangar?

 

Pud

 

 

[Riley]

The hangar is still on the market but the T300 sold about four weeks back. However, it will stay in the hangar at Bindoon till the new owner finishes off his RAA training in it then he'll move it out to his station near Paynes Find for fence/windmill checking & hunting stock out of creek beds. Flying conditions at Bindoon have been superb over the past month so best you get your instructor to include it as a way point on one of your X country training runs. Second Sunday of every month is Club day but coffee pot is always on.

 

cheers

 

 

[pudestcon]

The hangar is still on the market but the T300 sold about four weeks back. However, it will stay in the hangar at Bindoon till the new owner finishes off his RAA training in it then he'll move it out to his station near Paynes Find for fence/windmill checking & hunting stock out of creek beds. Flying conditions at Bindoon have been superb over the past month so best you get your instructor to include it as a way point on one of your X country training runs. Second Sunday of every month is Club day but coffee pot is always on.cheers

Glad to hear you sold the T300 Riley - now for the hangar eh?

 

I just have to get some time to visit Bindoon - won't be for a while now 'cos I'm off to Port Warrendar (Mitchell Falls area) camping for 4 weeks in August so I have to get the camper ready over the next couple of weekends.

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[MadamBreakneck]

re Tony Hayes's articles: while I was distributing his TOSG bulletins in the UK he kindly allowed me to publish the text of his articles on landing on my web site. You can access them [here].

 

Hope they help.

 

I believe his excellent taildragger training manuals are still available from his widow.

 

Joan

 

www.SaxonMicro.co.uk

 

 

[Methusala]

Thanks Joan for your timely addition to the resources available from this site. Yesterday I was landing the Thruster with my lovely wife and fellow Thruster lover. I came in a little high so the glideslope was steeper than usual. At 50kts we were coming down at about 800fpm. Plenty of strip ahead so no panic but I just misjudged the roundout stalling at about 1m above the ground and arriving heavily enough to bend the right hand gear leg a little. Perhaps this has to do with ageing or possibly not flying enough.

 

 

[Thruster Bob]

Hi all,

 

My vote is for three wheelers, It's what I've always done in my Thruster.

 

I can do them on dirt, grass, sand, bitumen in upto 20kts headwind and 15kts sidewind.

 

My worst landings have been my attempts at wheelers! I have the long, soft springs and some say this makes it more prone to bouncing/ballooning.

 

Its helpful to have a quick hand on the throttle, as you will sometimes benefit from a little extra power, especially with Pax and full fuel.

 

To do a dead-stick three-pointer can be quite tricky, as you need to arrange to have the right combination of vertical and horizontal speed (i.e. you need to be fairly fast, if you just waffle in you won't have energy to arrest your descent, and risk ploughing through a compression stall just before you hit the ground)

 

Cheers , Bob T

 

 

[farri]

I cannot see any reason to wheel on a taildragger as whatever you do you still have to get that tailwheel down and the sooner the better in my opinion.

In my opinion,The perfect landing in a taildrager, is when the three wheels touch the ground at the same time.

 

I don`t have a, 'one fits all method', as I believe no two landings are exactly the same,regardles of the landing surface,I simply do what is required at the time and I also think that to adopt a particular technique, regardles of the circumstances of the landing, can be detrimental.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Thrusters, Drifters, grass and dirt...........all been discussed. Now there's one golden rule for GRAVEL strips, Don't let any aircraft drift sideways or land at an angle to the strip 'cause you'll take years of life off your tyres. I drifted in a Jab fitted with reasonably worn tyres and ripped the tread off. The tyre blew just after shut down.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Thrusters, Drifters, grass and dirt...........all been discussed. Now there's one golden rule for GRAVEL strips, Don't let any aircraft drift sideways or land at an angle to the strip 'cause you'll take years of life off your tyres. I drifted in a Jab fitted with reasonably worn tyres and ripped the tread off. The tyre blew just after shut down.

Well I'm looking forward to trying out our dirt strip in the not to distant future - possibly early in the New Year - can't wait.

 

Pud

 

 

[farri]

Now there's one golden rule for GRAVEL strips, Don't let any aircraft drift sideways or land at an angle to the strip 'cause you'll take years of life off your tyres. QUOTE]Here`s another golden rule.

 

Don`t let any aircraft drift sideways on any strip,cause you might take years off your own life.

 

Frank.

[Guest Dick Gower]

Nudging the stick forward to pin the aircraft down is the beginning of a wheelbarrow accident Pud. Instructors take a lot of trouble to ensure that students never have any tendency to do that. The transfer of weight on to the nose wheel decreases the directional stability on the ground and is the cause of many accidents. CASA put out a safety poster on this a couple of years ago.

 

The only exception is when doing a wheeler landing in a tailwheel aircraft.

 

Regards,

 

Dick

 

 

[pudestcon]

Hi Dick,I think you will find any reference Pud might have made to pinning would have referred to his Tail wheel thruster, as you rightly point out, pinning the mains with forward stick in a tricycle undercarriage aircraft is asking for trouble and haven't we seen plenty of C172 wheel barrows out there .... oh dear....

David

Yep you are correct David.

 

Dick, Yes I understand what you are saying as I have a bit of time on a Gazelle, but my comments in this thread relate specifically to a T500 Thruster in a 'wheel on' landing.

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest AVU]

Hi Gang.

 

The age old dragon ( wheeler viz 3 pointer ) in a Thruster rises to the surface again. Looking at the Thruster sitting on the ground will show that the AOA is approx. 24 to 28 degrees. depending on the size of the wheels. Looking at the Drifter sitting on the ground will show an approx. AOA of 16-18 degree. I ask you? which of the two would be easier to 3 point and grease on. the answer is simple the A/C close to the stall or the A/C already stalled. The Thruster can be 3 pointed if conditions are right, the point of the stall in a Thruster depends on the wing loading (full fuel and 2 pilots on board) stall speed is than approx. 36-38 kts. If you are solo and less fuel the stall speed reduces to approx. 32 kts.

 

It also depends on the pilots experience on the Thruster. Dirt strips vis pavement strips are again slightly different dirt strip will give a bit paved strips will not. To 3 point on a dirt strip is to fly to the edge of the stall 5" of the dirt and smoothly bring power and stick back if done correctly the A/C will settle with minimal run out. If done incorrectly the stress on the stern post can be bad. Until you have some more experience I would suggest wheel landings.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

Steve.

 

 

[facthunter]

3 point etc.

 

This one does get kicked around from time to time.

 

You can't abuse the tailwheel OR the nose wheel as they both can be damaged, fairly easily. The others are called MAINwheels and they are the strongest ones

 

IF you thumped a Chipmunk onto it's tailwheel (hard to do but it has been done). you can damage it by forcing the structure up , and this can JAMB the elevator in full UP position. No way to do a go-around.

 

I always felt that to do the best landing with a Tiger moth you got the tailskid to touch JUST before the mains. The three pointer was the NORM. Today, just about every landing I see with both the DHC-1 and DH-82 are done by wheeling them on.

 

The aeroplanes have not changed. Why the change of technique?

 

Wheelers are good when the winds are up, or it is gusting. You have a bit more control as you have a bit more airspeed.

 

The Thruster is a bit different. It is not easy to three point as it stalls just before you get the tailwheel on the ground. Tony Hayes was in the process of redesigning the plane to reduce the riggers angle of incidence of the mainplanes just before he passed away.

 

The Drifter does not sit very nose high when it is on all three wheels. It is sometimes referred to as not quite a true tailwheel. I don't accept that, (and I will explain soon).

 

The result is that the plane is not fully stalled in the landing configuration This is not the big deal it might seem. BUT

 

Tailwheel aircraft have the MAINwheels FORWARD of the C of G.

 

Tricycle U/C aircraft have the MAINwheels AFT of the C of G . This is why the difficulty, of keeping a tailwheel plane straight. It is basically directionally unstable, on the ground.

 

The nosewheel equipped plane IS directionally stable on the ground till you muck it up by putting lots of weight on the nosewheel. (which is well forward of the C of G). The position of the wheel(s) with the aircraft weight on is the important factor. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

correction.

 

Quite right David. I put in the wrong name. I did mean the "Drifter". You can have a job as my proof reader at the usual rates. Thanks & regards.. Nev

 

 

[pudestcon]

It also depends on the pilots experience on the Thruster...... Until you have some more experience I would suggest wheel landings.Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

Steve.

G'day Steve,

 

As you well know, I am a new Thruster driver having only a few hours since my conversion training th the T500. As such I'm going to stick with the method I was taught until I have a lot more hours up... Then I might come see you for some instruction in 3 pointers as good practise if I'm ever involved in an engine failure and the terrain is not too favourable.

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[Methusala]

G'day Thruster drivers, just saying that this morning the lovely lady and I dragged the old bird out, checked it over carefully, and launched into the most beautiful day. Life does not come any better than this. We shared thermals with a Wedgie and just thralled in the beauty around us. This was followed by a perfect 3 pointer! Just 45 minutes but makes all the sh***y bits seem insignificant. Yours fraternally, Don

 

 

[pudestcon]

G'day Thruster drivers, just saying that this morning the lovely lady and I dragged the old bird out, checked it over carefully, and launched into the most beautiful day. Life does not come any better than this. We shared thermals with a Wedgie and just thralled in the beauty around us. This was followed by a perfect 3 pointer! Just 45 minutes but makes all the sh***y bits seem insignificant. Yours fraternally, Don

Great stuff Don,

 

I'm very envious as I have not flown since 26th June and I'm getting very toe-ee!!

 

I've gotta get in the air soon.

 

Pud

 

 

[pudestcon]

You sound like me Pud, I still haven't got the Javelin in the air yet, too much travel for work and not enough play time .... bugger!David

I wondered how you were going with the Javelin David,

 

In my case, most of my weekends are taken up with home projects like, paving, painting and renovations. Not to worry though as I have put aside 3 weekends in December to get the Thruster finished.

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[Yenn]

Now that Tony is no longer with us we are hearing of people who 3 point the Thruster. That was practically forbidden in his day, but I found it a much safer way to go. I did try wheeling one on once, but only once.

 

To get a good idea of how you are landing, try a beach landing. It may surprise you. With the Corby, I seem to be putting the tail wheel down as much as 5M before the mains, which means it is actually about 3M ahead of them after allowing for the distance between. A Savvy or a Jab should have the mains down a long way before the nosewheel.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Now that Tony is no longer with us we are hearing of people who 3 point the Thruster. That was practically forbidden in his day, but I found it a much safer way to go. I did try wheeling one on once, but only once.To get a good idea of how you are landing, try a beach landing. It may surprise you. With the Corby, I seem to be putting the tail wheel down as much as 5M before the mains, which means it is actually about 3M ahead of them after allowing for the distance between. A Savvy or a Jab should have the mains down a long way before the nosewheel.

Why did you only try a wheel on landing once Yenn? What was so bad that you didn't give it another go? I assume this was in a Thruster.

 

The Corby must have a pretty strong tail wheel assembly to be getting that down first. I reckon the Thruster tail wheel assembly requires the same treatment as the nose wheel in a Jab, Savvy or the Gazelle which I have some time in - that is keep it of the runway as long as possible.

 

Pud

 

 

[Methusala]

G'day, "2 schools of thought". At Holbrook, where both schools taught on Thrusters, everyone taught 3 point as this was the most stable way to outland. Once all flying speed has been washed off the aircraft sinks to the ground and there is no tendancy for it resume flying off a bounce. Yes it does take more skill to learn but as Mick Parer would say, "If you can fly a Thruster then you can fly anything." Regards, Don.

 

 

[Thruster Bob]

Holbrook: The trampoline of airports!

 

Odd you should mention Holbrook, I'd only done wheelers during training and was pretty hopeless at them , but I normally use three pointers all the time.

 

Then went to a fly-in at Holbrook, thought I'd do a wheeler, and did two huge bounces to the accolades of hundreds of onlookers!!!

 

So embarrassing!

 

Pud has a good point re tail wheels (and damage to them), after landing a three pointer, I'd pick up the tail pretty much straight away and do a tail up taxi all the way back (except with tail-winds) until I was ready to park. I think of the tail wheel as a handbrake, use it only when needed.

 

It would be nice to be able to do a wheeler, and then gradually transition to a tail-high taxi, I've done this with Keith's thruster (with the stiff springs) , but mine has the big soft springs.

 

The other point is , it's my suspicion that most Thruster three-pointers actually happen with the tail wheel about six inches to a foot off the ground when the mains contact, then the tail contacts a fraction of a second later (The angle of incidence suggests it has to happen this way too), you'd need to do a beach landing and use a tape measure to be sure.

 

Yet another thing, you need to keep the wings level with your feet during a three-pointer, my suspicion is those pilots who have trouble flying at high angle of attack where the controls get all mixed up, non-linear and crossed over will have difficulty doing anything but a wheeler.

 

Cheers, BobT

 

 

[Methusala]

Sure thing Bob, the Thruster skeg is a weak point and should be checked as part of the pre-flight. Embarassment is a good way to remind ourselves of the folly of showing-off in an aircraft! Regards, Don

 

 

[pudestcon]

Well my T500 is getting very close to it's 1st flight. Poll reports that our airfield on his property is not in good nick though, what with all the wind we have had lately, the sand is blowing and causing corrugations and small raised areas around the afghan thistle plants - only bloody stuff that will grow in a drought I reckon. Yes there are still areas in WA that require rain right now so that water does not need carting to stock.

 

I'm sure looking forward to the day I can ring him and say "Drag those truck tyres over the strip will you, so I can attempt a greaser of a 1st landing"

 

Pud