Gazelle Belly Flop.

[Guest Maj Millard]

Good job Motz on the recovery at Albatross, and good thinking to go there with all the gear available, should you have needed it.

 

Also good thinking with the possible control problem, that situation could have changed at any time. It's all good experience that you just can't go out and buy..............Maj..:thumb_up:

 

 

[Methusala]

G'Day All, I was thinking that flying a plane is like a mystery bag, you never know quite what you will get. I was landing on my mate's uphill strip in the Thruster today and needed all the travel in the rudder to keep it straight! I don't know why it was like that but the strip is rather undulating in both dimensions. You have to keep on to these tail wheel aircraft!

 

 

[Tomo]

G'Day All, I was thinking that flying a plane is like a mystery bag, you never know quite what you will get.

Yes indeed! I landed yesterday and as soon as I applied the brake... Bang! and it went loose, and so did the aircraft! They roll a lot without brakes! Especially on a slight downhill slope...

 

Zig zagged all other the whole strip, only going to resort to the grass if really needed, but made the turn around at the end of the strip... wouldn't wanted to have been any faster - put it that way! Fortunately the strip was fairly wide, so it worked well.

 

After we parked I found the right hand brake line broken off at the wheel, Mmm... interesting I thought, so I pulled the wheel spat off, and the brake caliper fell to the ground!! The "T" plate that holds it to the leg had broken off. Which is extremely surprising considering the thickness of it. And another surprising thing is that it just sat there, and didn't jam and lock the wheel up, or put a hole in the spat!

 

The aircraft had had a pretty hard landing a week or so before on a training flight, so it makes me wonder if the caliper actually hit the deck and consequently fractured it... dunno.

 

It was all good fun, amazing how you come up with ideas when you need to.

 

I can tell you the runout after landing a jabiru as slow as you can into a 10kt headwind still rolls a long way! I know cause I had to do it coming back home!

 

I should add too, thanks a lot to the Unicom guy for coming over and checking if all was ok after parking, and for helping make the backtrack and departure doable without rolling into the fence at the end (was downhill), and other aircraft. Extremely appreciated. Thanks guys.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're right, that's one area where the Jab seems to go like greased lightning.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Merv,

 

Glad to hear you are OK.

 

Thanks for that story. On the bright side of things, at least you are able to walk and talk about it, and you now have a taildragger conversion...

 

Ben

 

 

[rick-p]

Gooday mate, that little friend of our's (Greg) was sitting on your shoulder, for sure.

 

Regards,

 

Rick-p

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hey Tomo, Just confirming you flew the thing back with no brakes? Hmm interesting decion, what would you have done if you had the engine caughed just before rotate? Or and engine failure on route into a short field? I know lots of aircaft operate without brakes - my Thruster doesn't have any but they are a little different to a Jab. The other implication would have been insurance if you ran it off the strip after departing with a known unservicablity....

 

 

[Tomo]

Hey Barefoot, yes I flew it back without brakes.

 

I didn't just blindly do it as it were, I planned it out as you would all EFAT, and or forced landings.

 

Uphill runway was used, grass verge on side of runway was sufficient for a buffer if needed to be used to slow down. Runway at destination was two quite long ones, with a grass verge also. Owner was informed and authorized flight. I managed to slow the aircraft down in about 500mts with no brakes and downhill from the first incident on a tarmac surface. So was confident.

 

Brakes were not needed for directional control - so that was ok.

 

As a mechanic I did a thorough check of all other components and checked it was safe to use.

 

 

[bushpilot]

Yes indeed! I landed yesterday and as soon as I applied the brake... Bang! and it went loose, and so did the aircraft! They roll a lot without brakes! Especially on a slight downhill slope... Zig zagged all other the whole strip, only going to resort to the grass if really needed, but made the turn around at the end of the strip... wouldn't wanted to have been any faster - put it that way! Fortunately the strip was fairly wide, so it worked well.

 

After we parked I found the right hand brake line broken off at the wheel, Mmm... interesting I thought, so I pulled the wheel spat off, and the brake caliper fell to the ground!! The "T" plate that holds it to the leg had broken off. Which is extremely surprising considering the thickness of it. And another surprising thing is that it just sat there, and didn't jam and lock the wheel up, or put a hole in the spat!

 

The aircraft had had a pretty hard landing a week or so before on a training flight, so it makes me wonder if the caliper actually hit the deck and consequently fractured it... dunno.

 

It was all good fun, amazing how you come up with ideas when you need to.

 

I can tell you the runout after landing a jabiru as slow as you can into a 10kt headwind still rolls a long way! I know cause I had to do it coming back home!

 

I should add too, thanks a lot to the Unicom guy for coming over and checking if all was ok after parking, and for helping make the backtrack and departure doable without rolling into the fence at the end (was downhill), and other aircraft. Extremely appreciated. Thanks guys.

This is not an uncommon occurrence on Jabs. The school at Orange has had 2 of those "T" plates fail. I suspect it's more likely to happen if the pilot allows the brakes to judder when applying firmly; best to ease the pressure when that happens, then reapply.

 

 

[Geoff]

Tomo as the owner of a J160:thumb_up: I have had the time or two that the brakes aren't good enoughthumb_down but cutting the engine and opening both doors helps:laugh:

 

 

[Tomo]

I suspect it's more likely to happen if the pilot allows the brakes to judder when applying firmly; best to ease the pressure when that happens, then reapply.

Thanks for that Chris, will keep it in mind - in this case, I hardly had time to use them, as soon as pressure was applied it was all over.

 

 

[peterm]

when this happened to me i blocked off the side that failed by folding and tying with lockwire then filling up with brake fluid again and bleeding, it stops very good on 1 brake just to get you home a lot better than no brakes i then fitted the dual calaper design it looks a lot stronger than the single t plate.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Just a little worried Tomo. A Jab with no brakes, in my view is unservicable. Regardless of who was there and saw you do it, u/s is u/s.

 

If any of my students or pilots knowingly took off with no brakes they would be getting a month break from flying to think about it.

 

On sunday I was training with a bloke, doing cct's. On a touch and go he landed a little long but not too bad. As he applied full power the engine didnt respond, just coughed and spluttered. I took over, closed the throttle and landed straight ahead, hard on the brakes. We pulled up with 2 or 3 meters to spare. The over run is a 10 foot drain, full of water.

 

Where do you think we would have ended up without the brakes? '

 

I will leave you with this: Aviation is very unforgiving of any incapacity or neglect.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

A touch of levity to what is a serious subject. If a jab with no brakes is U/S then a normal jab must only be 90% U/S cause the single caliper jobbies on my J230 are about as effective as the Fred Flinstone patented method of braking.

 

They, more than anything else, are what put me off going into short fields and I hate to think what they might be like on the VH registered Aircraft where MTOW is roughly 150kgs more...

 

The very next Mod I do will be to replace them with the dual caliper versions, pressuming that they are actually more effective.

 

Andy

 

P.S we now return you to the normal program for this thread......

 

 

[sleemanj]

Where do you think we would have ended up without the brakes?

I would say you would have been in the same place as you would have been if the engine had coughed and spluttered 2 or 3 meters later when even the fully operational brakes were insufficient to stop in the distance available.

 

You know the stopping distance required for your aircraft with brakes, and thus, you plan for that. If you know the stopping distance required without brakes (and you definitely should), you can plan for that too.

 

Obviously you prefer to have brakes over no brakes, especially in a slippery aircraft, but I think that's no reason to strand yourself if you can SAFELY PLAN for operating without them in order to get back to a place of repair.

 

There's plenty of aircraft in worse state been flown back for repair:

 

Optimal Jet, Aviation Videos. panoramic pictures, aircraft parts

 

20 min video, WELL worth the watch.

 

 

[Gibbo]

A touch of levity to what is a serious subject. If a jab with no brakes is U/S then a normal jab must only be 90% U/S cause the single caliper jobbies on my J230 are about as effective as the Fred Flinstone patented method of braking..

Flown a few Jabs and most of them had really bad brakes.. It would appear that the cause (in a lot of case's) was that the protective lining had been left on the rotor at installation. I was informed of this in Bundy last year while getting a x-hire serviced. The only way to remove it was to softly bead blast the rotor. The protective coating is clear and when heated changes the surface friction on the rotor hence the crap brakes.

 

Maybe worth having a look at.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Like motza said if it unservicable and you break your plane do you think your insurance will pay? I know I wouldn't! We have all gotten away with things but one day we won't and if its due to something we could have prevented by grounding an aircraft etc that would be pretty embarressing if not expensive.

 

 

[Tomo]

Point taken Motz, Barefoot - thanks for your concern. I understand the implications, and in this situation I was not able to repair it at this aerodrome. Like I said, I did a risk assessment of the proceeding flight and deemed it ok for me to do.

 

I'm not trying to get out of it btw - and being young I don't always make the best decisions, so thanks.

 

 

[sleemanj]

We are getting pretty off topic, mods maybe a thread split is in order.

 

Like motza said if it unservicable and you break your plane do you think your insurance will pay?

One would expect that depends on the manner in which you break the plane and the circumstances around that.

 

If you plan a flight to an airfield with suitable length for a braked landing, and you have brakes, and you XXXX it up, they'd pay out, right, hope so, because that's a large reason why we buy insurance.

 

If you plan your flight to an airfield with suitable length for a no brake landing, and XXXX it up, I don't see a manner in which it was relevant that there were brakes.

 

If you have no brakes and plan your flight to an airfield which was NOT SUITABLE for a no brakes landing, now you're in trouble, but the same goes if you have working brakes and go plan your flight to an airfield which is not suitable for a braked landing.

 

It's very dangerous to draw legal conclusions across borders certainly, but here in NZ the law (Insurance Law Reform Act 1977 to be exact) requires that the reason given for denying a claim is directly material to the cause for the claim, and I would anticipate that AU had some similar sort of legislation - otherwise get-out-of-claim-free cards would abound in the insurance industry.

 

The last insurance forms I filled out didn't ask "does your aircraft have brakes", because one assumes, it's a matter of piloting to know the limits of the aircraft and thus, has little bearing on the accident rate (aircraft without brakes I would guess have probably no more accidents than those with, because pilots know how far it takes them to stop).

 

 

[i_like_planes]

Afraid I'm with motz and barefootpilot on this on ... Unserviceable is unserviceable - period.

 

Not having a dig at ya Tomo, we've all made mistakes before and I'm sure many of us have flown, realising later that we shouldn't have. I'm just shocked to see people defending the decision to fly an aircraft that is U/S. Apart from the obvious (or not so obvious) safety concerns, it's against the law and, in my opinion, is bad airmanship.

 

Saying that the brakes on a Jab "don't do much" or that it can be "flown safely without them" is like saying that an engine will run fine on one magneto.

 

Just another hole in the swiss cheese if ya ask me.

 

There's plenty of aircraft in worse state been flown back for repair:

Is this really the attitude we should be promoting in aviation? ...

Cory.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hey Tomo, It wasn't a personal shot at you, I just thought I would point out the what if's. Some times we get wrapped up in the situation and forget about the simple things. I have been sucked into the situation before of "if you could just get it back to the hangar it would be much easier" and 99% of the time you get away with it but it only takes once for it all to go wrong but maybe thats just my somber mood tonight.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sleemanj, your missing the point entirely. If Tomo had an incident where the brakes were an issue then the insurance would be voided. Pretty simple, but thats off the point aswell.

 

Where do we draw the line?.. No brakes is ok,.. mabye, only 1 mag running propperly??.. mabye the fuel doesnt need to be drained because the last time i got fuel here it was fine??.. Mabye i dont even need to do a walk around today, if i find anything wrong (brakes unservicable etc) i will just make an assesment to suit my current circumstances??..Its called complacency, and its killed more pilots than the spitfire.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Do Jabirus, or any Raaus aircraft have a MEL? Minimum equipment list? basically a list of what can be U/S and the aircraft still serviceable to fly..

 

 

[Mazda]

Personally I would not have flown it back knowing the brakes had failed. I've had brake failures before and chosen not to fly. Was there anyone at Monto who could have fixed it there? Could you have got a lift back to Dalby in another aircraft if you had to get home?

 

Getting clearance from the owner to fly it back isn't enough - you are responsible for your own fate, and that of your passengers.

 

Fortunately it worked out safely this time, but things could have gone wrong. What may have happened if someone had wandered in front of the aircraft when you were trying to do run ups for example? Or what about if you couldn't hold at the holding point when another aircraft was holding or landing?

 

Maybe you have reached a level of experience which enabled you to get home safely this time, but please don't think that will be the case in every situation.

 

Remember the saying, "A superior pilot uses his or her superior judgment to avoid situations that may require his or her superior skill." :)

 

Anyway, take it as a learning experience, it looks as though you have. :thumb_up:

 

 

[facthunter]

What am I doing?

 

The way to look at what you are doing at any point of time is "what would the COURT FIND"? This will bring you down to earth. NO MEL (minimum equipment list) would permit operation without brakes (Where fitted) They would be sticking their neck out too far. The DH-82 (with tailSKID) operated on grass, never had brakes fitted , and did not need them.

 

Motz. is on the money here. The other thing is that in justifying individual circumstances, you are saying in effect that "rules are for non-thinkers/ non skilled/non capable, people,. NOT for me. The system can never accept such a proposition, and will come down on you like a TONNE of bricks.. The rest out there will say 'this bloke said it was OK. I reckon I'm as good as he is so it's OK for me. The example you set is important too.

 

A saying I go by is "There are enough unknowns risks in the air already to not risk taking known risks into the air with you." Nev