Canley Vale Crash this morning

[pilotdave69]

News just seen on TV that a light plane has crashed in Sydney near Bankstown.. so sad to see..

 

 

[flying dog]

This MAY help:

 

At least one person is dead, and five children have suffered minor injuries, after a plane crashed in southwest Sydney and burst into flames.

 

One person is confirmed dead, a NSW Ambulance spokesman said, after the light plane smashed into a power pole in Canley Vale Road at Canley Vale about 8am (AEST) on Tuesday.

 

The plane crashed near Canley Vale Public School and five children were taken to Liverpool Hospital with minor injuries and shock.

 

A 57-year-old man and a 50-year-old woman were also taken to hospital to be treated for shock, the spokesman said.

 

Emergency crews were still working to determine if anyone was in a parked car that ignited at the crash scene.

 

Local resident Joanne Saunders said she heard three loud explosions and thought a bomb had gone off.

 

'It frightened the hell out of me. There was smoke everywhere. When I saw it was a plane I couldn't believe it,' she told AAP.

 

Other residents said some children at Canley Vale Primary School suffered injuries from flying debris.

 

Tony Suna, from Canley Vale, said the plane took down some power poles with it, cutting off power supply in the area.

 

Telstra BigPond News and Weather

 

 

[winsor68]

That is one nasty crash... and could have been a whole lot nastier. I really feel for the kids from the school. My sympathy for all involved.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Preliminary info from ATSB here AO-2010-043

 

 

[pilotdave69]

Reports saying was AIRTEX Aviation in Sydney.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Oh boy this is not going to go down well with the anti YBK mob.

 

 

[Spin]

Nasty, but very thankful it wasn't worse, it could all too easily have ploughed into the school buildings!

 

You live and learn, I was about to toss bricks in the ATSB's direction for calling a PA 31 a Piper Mojave, instead of a Navajo or a Chieftan, however I see there is such a beastie in the Piper stable, described as a twin piston version of a Cheyenne. Going to be interesting to see why he couldn't maintain on one engine after the other apparently failed.

 

 

[Thx1137]

This MAY help:At least one person is dead, and five children have suffered minor injuries, after a plane crashed in southwest Sydney and burst into flames.

 

Telstra BigPond News and Weather

Hmm. SMH has two people dead, a pilot and a nurse. The 5 children were in a "nearby" school and suffered shock. No one on the ground was physically injured according wo what I just read.

 

 

[Exadios]

There is a playing field right next to the road where the crash occurred. What I cannot understand is why the pilot did not try for that.

 

 

[pilotdave69]

Apparently he tried but couldnt keep altitude.. hitting power pole near school.

 

 

[Exadios]

Apparently he tried but couldnt keep altitude.. hitting power pole near school.

That would make sense.- although, according to a report in the Fairfax press, his last words to the controller where "We have to put it down on the road."

 

Looks like he left his decision until too late. For instance there is some open park land about 500 meters to the north west that would be a better shot.

 

For some reason he spent some time asking the controller if there where any good roads about. Seems like he had a fixation on roads. It would have been better if he had picked some of the playing fields out visually and just landed. Aviate, navigate, communicate.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Going to be interesting to see why he couldn't maintain on one engine after the other apparently failed.

There are not many light twins around that can maintain altitude on one engine, especially when loaded with Max fuel for a trip to QLD and cargo.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ultralights,

 

That is a good point. I forgot that they would have been near MTOW.

 

Speculating:

 

I wonder how close to the blue line speed he was and if he lost valuable seconds not trimming the prop - reducing drag - and helping maintain speed.

 

Shame Hoxton park wasn't open - but I guess he wouldn't have got that far anyway.

 

It will be nice to know what the final report will say?

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

I doubt he would have been at MTOW as it was a medical flight. It looks as if he was trying for the sports fields but couldn't get there. He was an experianced Pilot having flown the aircraft for four years and a true gentleman. It is a great loss to lose such a nice guy.

 

 

[Spin]

There are not many light twins around that can maintain altitude on one engine, especially when loaded with Max fuel for a trip to QLD and cargo.

This is an 8 seat twin, carrying 2 people and some medical equipment apparently. Even with full tanks, at less than 1000' amsl and at whatever relatively low temp Sydney dished up this morning I would very definitely expect this one to climb away slowly on one if handled correctly. Any of our twin drivers want to comment?

 

Sounds to me as though he must have had bigger problems than simply losing one donkey.

 

Edit: The only specs I could find state that at MTOW at ISA it will climb at 255 feet per minute on one, up to a ceiling of 14,300 feet.

 

 

[ozzietriker]

it's very sad day indeed, my thoughts are with their families.

 

 

[Thx1137]

When I fly I sometimes do scenarios like "engine stops now" or "aircraft banks hard left". It scares the hell out of me even thinking about a city, not that I can fly over one.

 

While the idea is to hit the softest thing at the slowest speed, those fields would look awfully small When surrounded by lots of built up stuff I reckon.

 

Most of us know what we should do and i am sure he did too, I can't truly comprehend how he felt but I do know it was a nightmare that would cause most if not all of us to not be at our best. Thats part of being human. Very sad.

 

What evidence is there that he didn't consider all available options and didn't perform checks faster than greased lighning? None at all. We weren't there, we can't know and will never know all of it because the only person that does didn't survive.

 

 

[facthunter]

maintain altitude on one engine.

 

Sorry U/L, All modern twins are supposed to not only be able to maintain height but to be able to achieve a gross gradient climb after failure of one engine on T/O. I think this is about 1.6% but don't hang me on the exact figure. I am not implying criticism of the pilot and since none of us were there we do not know exactly what happened.. I feel that I have to pick you up on the assertion you made. Older twins like the DH Dragon/ Dragonfly, Miles Gemini ,Avro Anson etc would not maintain height on one engine and all they had was extended glide with the remaining power available. The ability to climb on one is dependant on the failed engine being feathered and the gear up, flaps up and the plane flown at the correct "blue line" speed for the weight and the remaining engine delivering the rated power, and the plane flown in balance or slightly "good" engine low. A lot of considerations that we can only speculate on, and shouldn't. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

This aircraft did not need to climb only maintain. it was in cruise climb cleaned up.

 

why did it not maintain. only around 50 of this type built. the whole family of this model is a handfull with a engine out. As a medivac aircraft be interesting to know the weight. lets hope the investigators have enough bits left to work out why.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Terrible terrible stuff.

 

No-one can know what was happening,

 

All (modern) twins should be able to climb on 1 engine. Not much of a climb and it requires the pilot having things just right. Right down to half a ball out and wings banked 5 deg towards the good engine.

 

On takeoff this can be a real problem and has brought many a twin pilot unstuck. In the cruise or with altitude under the belt it should be a fairly straight forward procedure. Im not at all saying this has anything to do with this accident, just answering some questions.

 

A terrible accident, 2 kind soul's gone. Thank god it wasn't worse.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just remember, big twin = big workload, there's a good thread from a few twin pilots on pprune - seems it may not have been just one engine

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Apparently the "good" engine wasn't behaving either..A pilot (who was playing golf at the time)saw it fly overhead at about 400ft said dead engine was feathered and the other engine was surging/splutering.

 

Unfortunately much of what happened will probably never be known, but if the problem happened up near richmond, and one report has stated that they could accept him in although others report that fog was an issue there, why he didnt just put down there is a mystery..My instinct is that secondary problems came later and compounded the problems he already had.He should have been able to make it back to bankstown from the height he was at( 7000ft at 21 miles i think..)

 

From all I have read this pilot was an exceptional young man and great pilot, but lets hope he didn't push on when there were other options available as this is an old story that has taken too many.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Just a quick note - light twins aka anything under 5700kg do not require the ability to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb on one engine - they only require to be able to maintain altitude. Aircraft above 5700kg require a positive climb rate and to be able to meet certain climb performances.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, just discussing.

 

I've spoken to someone and he said the mojave is WAY over powered. They can/should be able to get 500 FPM with engine.

 

Other thing/s:

 

If they were near Richmond, why oh why did he try to turn back?

 

As the plane was at 7,000 feet - err - wouldn't he be in Charlie airspace? (Simonflyer)

 

I wonder if anyone has done fuel samples of what was available that day?

 

Oh, and the link near the top to the ATSB site.

 

Will it be updated as things come to light?

 

 

[Spin]

Uh FD if your contact reckoned the Mojave was OVERpowered, he seems to be in a class of one, best info I have been able to get from people who have flown the PA 31 series is that they are adequate performers on two and potentially a handful on one. So far it seems Richmond was considered and rejected because of fog. Under normal circumstances a Mojave should have been able to at least maintain altitude in cruise configuration, on one. To my mind the most telling post (Simonflyer) is the one re the pilot who observed the Piper pass overhead, one engine stopped, the other surging or running rough. As I said in my original post, this poor bloke had more than a single engine failure on his hands.