What's the new name for this circuit join?

[JayKay]

Pre 3 June 2010 an "entering downwind" circuit call meant that you were joining the circuit at 45 degrees from the active side approximately mid runway. (See diagram below from the VFRG ver 2 page 239)

 

The new circuit rules which became effective on 3 June 2010 show the "joining downwind" circuit call is to be made when joining the circuit in line with the downwind leg - extended backwards. (See diagram below from the VFRG ver 4 page 242)

 

What then do we now say on the radio when joining the circuit on the downwind leg at 45 degrees from the active side? "... Joining at 45 degrees for ..."?? :confused: We can't call in "... entering downwind ..." anymore because that is now a valid call for a new circuit join location.

 

I also note then we used to 'enter' circuits, but now we 'join' circuits.

 

I further note that what used to be known as "... entering midfield crosswind ..." is now known as "... joining crosswind ..." but the location of entry is identical.

 

These are serious issues because when other pilots are making these calls they are giving us the big hint via radio WHERE TO LOOK for their aircraft when in circuit. If our understanding of the circuit locations is different then life in circuit will only get more stressful and dangerous.

 

But then again, some might say that "If you didn't know about these changes until now, they are not the sort of changes that will have endangered your flying because the only procedure that you wouldn't have known about is the joining on base leg."

 

So do we now call the old "... entering downwind ..." the "... joining at 45 degrees ..."?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Try "joining Downwind" for a 45 degree join and "joining extended downwind" for when you enter the downwind from an extended position!

 

In my opinion the extended downwind join is far safer than the 45 degree join!:thumb_up:

 

PS: Not sure that either of these joins is 'new'!

 

 

[JayKay]

Or maybe we could try "... joining mid downwind ..." for the 45 degree join, and "... joining downwind ..." for the extended downwind join (as per the current rules for the latter).

 

Let's keep on guessing ...

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Don't make me get out the books!

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

When I join a circuit at 45 degrees on downwind, I call "joining midfield downwind runway 00". It's then clear where you are in the circuit. Perhaps "Joining early downwind" could be used with the new procedure? I dare say that anyone with proficiency in English would understand the meaning of such a call.

 

 

[robinsm]

In the latter case I use "joining long downwind" - lets em know I am on line for the downwind leg.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

"Joining 45 degree downwind rwy XX" would be the appropriate call. the yanks who invented this join call it the "joining oblique downwind rwy XX" perhaps casa should've copied that as welli_dunno

 

 

[shags_j]

i always join crosswind...

 

But given the way I join crosswind and I use the "Joining Crosswind runway xx" in the same way as the "long" downwind I would be inclined to use the same terminology.

 

 

[wags]

This could help your problem

 

Received this diagram the other day... I must stress it is not an official document but it appears to offer a satisfactory solution to the 45 deg downwind join procedure that CASA indicate in their diagram.

 

It clears up the dilemma by indicating that you should overfly if approaching at 45 deg anywhere along downwind. If joining at 45 deg at the beginning of downwind then it is a "normal" downwind join procedure.

 

OPERATIONS IN VICINITY OF AERODROMES.pdf

 

OPERATIONS IN VICINITY OF AERODROMES.pdf

 

OPERATIONS IN VICINITY OF AERODROMES.pdf

[Guest Howard Hughes]

The aircraft on the top right of diagram indicates that if joining from that position we should fly SEVEN legs of the circuit. :ah_oh:

 

From a safety perspective (which is what I believe these changes were predicated on) that is just plain wrong!

 

When I was learning to fly, I was always taught to fly to the right when approaching an airport (assuming LH circuits), that way depending on the wind, you are already set up on downwind, or can easily join crosswind for the opposing runway!

 

I find all this overflying and in particular the different circuit heights, unecessaary and unsafe. From my aircraft I have almost zero visibilty down, yet I am expected to descend through two circuit heights below me. I also know of many aircraft types which have zero visibilty upwards, all I can say is be very careful when descending in the circuit, in particular at unfamiliar aerodromes.

 

Cheers, HH.:thumb_up:

 

 

[Yenn]

I could well be wrong but all I say is "Downwind 13" and if necessary full stop or whatever.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I could well be wrong but all I say is "Downwind 13" and if necessary full stop or whatever.

Yes, you'd be wrong if you were at Camden:laugh:

 

 

[RetiredRacer]

I could be wrong here (because I haven't flown since the 3rd of June to double check). But don't the big boys now have to do their circuts @ 1500' AGL? And you now have to do your over-fly @ 2000' AGL?

 

I will be double checking the new rules before I go flying again. But please check me here if I am wrong :confused:

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Other than the required radio calls, the only major change to circuit procedures is that joining on base is now legal (but not encouraged). RPT circuits at 1500', over-flying at circuit height + 500' and joining midfield downwind (at 45deg) remains the same as per NAS2C changes from 2005.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I could be wrong here (because I haven't flown since the 3rd of June to double check). But don't the big boys now have to do their circuts @ 1500' AGL? And you now have to do your over-fly @ 2000' AGL?I will be double checking the new rules before I go flying again. But please check me here if I am wrong :confused:

Spot on.

 

Where it is suggested to overfly at 500' above circuit height, it should always remind the reader that is the top level circuit height.

 

Under the new procedures descending on / into a circuit leg is specifically verboten. That is why they have the overfly circle, where you can overfly above the top circuit height (>=2,000'AGL) and then descend on the inactive side for a cross wind join.

 

Obviously this assumes the airfield in question has an inactive side.

 

I haven't seen a diagram of co-existing LH and RH circuits in any of the new documentation.

 

I note the 800' helicopter circuit height seems to have disappeared, but so far haven't found anything specific about it. Anyone else notice this?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

then we overlay a new requirement...3 circuit heights

There is no new requirement for circuit heights - 1500' for high performance and 500' for low performance was part of the NAS2C changes from 2005.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[dazza 38]

I could be wrong here (because I haven't flown since the 3rd of June to double check). But don't the big boys now have to do their circuts @ 1500' AGL? And you now have to do your over-fly @ 2000' AGL?I will be double checking the new rules before I go flying again. But please check me here if I am wrong :confused:

I would like to add, high performance aircraft their talking about at 1500 agl, is 150 knots and above.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I could well be wrong but all I say is "Downwind 13" and if necessary full stop or whatever.

Hi yenn, that is how i put it, For Example at Boonah, where we get busy- Is say it like this-heres a couple of examples -"Boonah traffic tecnam 5395 Mid downwind 22 "touch and go" or "full stop" boonah etc, or "boonah traffic tecnam 5395 long down wind 22 boonah. In circuits- boonah traffic tecnam 5395 left base 22 boonah, or Boonah traffic tecnam 5395 left crosswind 22 boonah.Etc etc.

I do the same as you, mainly because, to keep the information short, and to the point. I never say "joining", or "turning" etc. Because people will/should know that your joining or turning etc. If i go the a airfield with right hand circuits, base call will change from "left base" to "right base". I have always done it this way with multiple instructors. GA and RAA

 

 

[JayKay]

Dazza, CAR 166C requires a pilot to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft. A broadcast must include: (VFRG ver4 page 251)

 

• the name of the aerodrome;

 

• the aircraft’s type and call-sign; and

 

• the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.

 

The standard broadcast format for low and medium performance aircraft is as per the following example: (VFRG ver4 page 253 - example in square brackets)

 

• (Location) Traffic : [Parkes Traffic]

 

• (Aircraft Type) : [Cessna 172]

 

• (Call-sign) : [Zulu Foxtrot Romeo]

 

• (Position / Intentions) : [One-zero miles north inbound, on descent through four-thousand two hundred, estimating the circuit at three-six.]

 

• (Location) : [Parkes]

 

Are you telling us that you flout the rules by not broadcasting the name of the aerodrome in your transmissions?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Dazza, CAR 166C requires a pilot to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft. A broadcast must include: (VFRG ver4 page 251)• the name of the aerodrome;

• the aircraft’s type and call-sign; and

 

• the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.

 

The standard broadcast format for low and medium performance aircraft is as per the following example: (VFRG ver4 page 253 - example in square brackets)

 

• (Location) Traffic : [Parkes Traffic]

 

• (Aircraft Type) : [Cessna 172]

 

• (Call-sign) : [Zulu Foxtrot Romeo]

 

• (Position / Intentions) : [One-zero miles north inbound, on descent through four-thousand two hundred, estimating the circuit at three-six.]

 

• (Location) : [Parkes]

 

Are you telling us that you flout the rules by not broadcasting the name of the aerodrome in your transmissions?

ARE NO- sorry mate, i better edit. I give inbound calls, all those calls you have mentioned. I dont say turning .:ah_oh:

 

 

[JayKay]

Dazza, if you don't use the words 'turning' or 'joining' then how does another inbound pilot unfamiliar with your call phraseology know if you are turning downwind in the circuit or joining the circuit on the downwind leg (as we see from this thread these can be different locations in the circuit).

 

Furthermore, a "... joining base 22 ..." call would be much more useful to an inbound pilot than just hearing '... base 22 ...' in which case the inbound pilot may erroneously presume that you are turning base for runway 22.

 

Just my observations.

 

 

[dazza 38]

if i say "left base 22" as an example, you say it as you start the turn from, in this case downwind.I see what you mean, but that is the way i was taught, the some instructors do it this way, one a CPL and the other ATPL.This is a example if already in the circuit. If coming from somwhere else, i would say "joining." I 90% of the time join on crosswind. 10 % downwind. Also when i am inbound, when i give my 10 mile call, i also give ETA to circuit by minute. Eg- estimate circuit at 56. So the guys in the circuit know what direction im coming from and at what time to expect me. Generaly being a training airfield, i will already know what the active runway is, via the radio, and will position my self accordingly.If i dont here anyone, i will overfly, with the correct broadcast.

 

Sorry for the confusion- i hope this clears it up, if joining the circuit for the first time, i would say joining, if im doing circuits, i dont say "turning" as is turning base or downwind etc, i say left or right base or downwind etc. depending on the circuit direction.

 

I just read my reply post 21, i see the confusion, i will change it.

 

 

[Tomo]

Look - Talk - Turn

 

Basically from what I understand, an aircraft is always easier to see when it banks. So if you Look, talk, turn... they will hear you (know where to look) and as you do the turn... see you.

 

So I always (if applicable) say Turning - Joining - entering before you do it. Just a bit of finesse I guess to make life easier for others.

 

Also not having a go at anyone in particular, but I hear it a lot. What is the point in saying "Left base"? Or "left crosswind"?

 

I mean unless stated otherwise all cct operations are left turns anyway. So why say it if that's what you s'posed to do anyway. Doesn't hurt I guess, but It isn't really needed, or is it?

 

I guess if you're used to operating off an airfield where the cct direction changes all the time it would be second nature in a way.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I think wether it is Left base or turning base, etc. Is a important thing, it is also important if you are flying in the circuit with multiple a/c.IS to know what your position is, ie- what number you are in relation to the a/c on final. Eg- Boonah Traffic cub 7030 LEFT downwind number 3 (or what ever the number is) to the cessna on Final.Boonah

 

I have even heard people just say the leg eg- Base, downwind or what ever.Generally i have found if someone says left or right downwind, etc,people know to look for them at the turning point.There is always going to be times when you cant get a radio call in at the particular time , like when turning from one leg to another. You have to wait in line, so pilots have to be flexible, each circuit can be different, when the time comes to making your radio call.With multiple a/c in the circuit.There is no point getting used to parrot fashion saying turning or left, right.Sometimes you have to make the turn, and then say eg,"downwind/crosswind or whatever.Alot of this has come for me anyway from flying at places like archerfield when their was six or so a/c in the circuit, you dont have alot of time to fit your radio call in, but aleast their with a tower, you know what your position is eg- number 6 behind piper on early downwind, etc etc

 

Ps- Tomo, i have been thinking of it, I am pretty sure i pick up the left/right call, from flying at archerfield with the parrallel runways with contra direction circuits.Cheers

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

An interesting discussion about "Left | Right Base".

 

I've heard it used on rare occasions by visiting aircraft at YYWG where the only circuit direction is Left and wondered about it. I guess people who fly into ADs where there are parallel runways use it to emphasize that they are in the correct direction, and then get into the habbit.

 

While in the above situation, it does not add anything useful, it isn't ambiguous or harmful.

 

Do those who use "Left | Right xxx" also qualify the other circuit calls? If not, what is the logic behind only qualifying one call?