Aircraft purchase

[Spin]

Wow, thats sterling info Sue, and also Old Man Emu, thanks :)What sort of donk is in the avergae Piper Tripacer? I do like the sound of the Lycoming, as it sounds like a good "hack" engine, a bit like a 250 Ford motor - get bits for them anywhere!

 

H.

Very similar to the one in the C172 you're flying, most seem to have the 150 horse Lycoming O-320, although there are also some with 135 and 160hp versions,

 

 

[facthunter]

L 0-320

 

This engine has been around a long time. They can have camshaft problems if they sit uninhibited. (like many other engines) They are a good reliable engine with a highTBO, but nothing lasts forever and many have high time.Some parts are very dear and there are a lot of variations. If you are unlucky you well spend a lot on a rebuild, New engines supplied with the RV kits are updated and improved and cost little more than a rebuild (if any more), The tripacer and Colt have AD's on some of the tubing and if the fabric is past it, you will end up overcapitalising the aircraft very easily, and you will never get your money back. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Previous owner of Piper Archer VH-PXB, registered in my wifes name at the time.Around 1998.Anyway, lycoming hawker Blue seal overhauled engine. Around 8 hours out of warranty, crack in crankcase. $4500, Repair, wing walk, wing off, rebuild stiffners, ribs, etc. Around $8 000. Get the wifey on the phone to me,( i was overseas at the time )after wing rebuild. I am WTF you can buy the wing root section from piper for half that price. They installed the wing, i flew back home a few weeks later, i was doing NAV training in her.Look at my instructor, Question "how long has she been flying crooked", he said since it came back from the 100 hourly(wing rebuilt) no worries we just adjusted the rudder trim. She had a rudder trim wheel. Oh realy, back to shop, sorry we didnt rig her properly, when we put the wing back on.In all fairness couldnt pick it from looking at her. Asked for a please explain, why not buy the walkway section, from the states, it was like, bad luck, i already have 3 other a/c owners taking me to court over other things, relating to their a/c being maintained her. WE didnt go back there again LOL.I then suffered from AIDS later, thats Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome i had to sell her(plane not wife).LOL

 

Anyway Just H, things are not always what they seem, as Sue and I and others have mentioned. Our A/c was also used for IFR training, our 100 hourly Bills , and unforseen maintence issues can cost big time $, at times.Just wanted to share this with you.Happy A/c hunting mate.

 

 

[planedriver]

This particualar thread has been such an interesting read.

 

Like so many others who dream of owning their own A/C, it's also a real eye opener as to the real costs, from those that know.

 

It does however, remind me of a plant hire company that I used to deal with in the UK over three decades ago, and their motto was " Money is made primarilly from the use of equipment, rather than the ownership of it"

 

Regards Planey

 

 

[dazza 38]

This particualar thread has been such an interesting read.Like so many others who dream of owning their own A/C, it's also a real eye opener as to the real costs, from those that know.

It does however, remind me of a plant hire company that I used to deal with in the UK over three decades ago, and their motto was " Money is made primarilly from the use of equipment, rather than the ownership of it"

 

Regards Planey

Hi Planey, i agree, our plane PXB,flew alot, it was the only 4 seat a/c at the school, it averaged, 12 to 18 hours per week. Even with the expense from my post above, it was still profitable.We are talking Big turn over.The a/c was a pure business decision, do i own a a/c at the moment, no i do not. In my case, these days, i only fly every second weekend, around 30 hours a year. I would like to own a ultralight, i would put more hours on her than that, especially if i had it close to home, where i could fly her in the summer time in the afternoon after work. At the moment, Boonah is 1hour and twenty minutes from home.Thats the main reason i fly every second weekend.Having said that, i have available at my disposal, 3 Tecnams and a Savage Cub. To hire and enjoy, 30 hours at a hire rate of $140 to $145 per hour per year.Thats great value.Although i do miss out on flying to flyins etc, due to the a/c being busy and only being able to hire them for a certain amount of time. I have looked at some a/c, a good lightwing last year looked realy good, Major Millard realy helped me out by contacting the owner for me etc.Unfortunatly it was sold before i could get the cash together, i also have a problem securing a hangar spot. Cheers mate.

 

 

[leestanley]

Positive Stories?

 

Lots of very good info here but do any readers have good news stories to share re their aircraft ownership? i.e comments that would recommend ownership to others :)

 

Cheers,

 

Lee

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

i.e comments that would recommend ownership to others :)

Yes, go for it! I love the fact I own my own aircraft! Go for a syndicate; you split the fixed cost between 5 people and as the average pilot only does 50 hours a year, you have plenty of flexibility to fly when you want to!

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Where I was based there were no planes for hire and I had a vast area to service. I had the cash so I bought a C152. After spending 13 hours driving to Birdsville for a one hour meeting I got permission from my employer to use it if the company car was not available. That didn't stretch to any compensation for it, but the hours saved for my personal life was enough for me (Qld Govt - they didn't pay overtime and you never got TOIL). The flying school about 200km away were looking for a plane to hire and I used to bring it over on weekends, then got a transfer there and got involved in the flying school. Best days of my life!

 

I was single with a good job and money in the bank so the occasional cost blow out didn't faze me. Most towns in Western Qld have airstrips with in easy walking distance of the CBD. I transfered to another town where I would walk to the strip, fly to any other town, walked to where (meeting, shopping, visiting) I wanted and fly back. The big brown dog (the Hungarian Vizsla "Sandy") was my most enthusiastic passenger and went everywhere with me. Sadly he died about a year ago of old age. My life has gotten awefully busy and I no longer have the time to fly for pleasure.

 

Building a plane is also a great way to get into ownership. When I met my husband to be, he was building a 2 seat ultralight in the backyard. I had always entertained ideas of building something that would fit me (being so short) and he was able to alter things to suit me - now I don't need a mountain of cushions. There's a great buzz out of building it yourself, and he certainly enjoys every minute of flying it. Now he's talking about doing another plane. If you have the time and patience this is a way to spread the cost and get what you want. Unfortunately we own so many planes that life revolves more around working on them than flying. Moral of the story - trim your life back so you can enjoy flying and stick to one or two planes.

 

Sue

 

 

[crazy diamond]

So what are the numbers like if I want to buy something like an X-Air? Purchase price approx $24K????

 

 

[peter]

The greatest benefit for me in ownership is convenience - I fly when I want to, not when the plane is "available". I work away a lot and the ability to come home and just pop out for a fly -- to me priceless. 6am on a summer morning, crystal clear skies, not a breath of wind, just pop up for a 20 minute scenic before breakfast -- priceless. Clear winter morning, cold, still, clear - 10 minutes to check out that Southern wright whale lolling about in the shallows - priceless.

 

Financially viable, nope, good value for money - nope. great fun, great satisfaction, great pride - yep - you only live once, go for it

 

Peter

 

 

[Neil_S]

Lots of very good info here but do any readers have good news stories to share re their aircraft ownership? i.e comments that would recommend ownership to others :)Cheers,

 

Lee

Hi - I would add the same as others have said, it is the convenience of being able to go for a fly when you want to, and at short notice. Not having to try and book a club plane. I co-own a plane and it has been no problem to coordinate when either of us wants to fly. Plus halving all the costs. Would recommend it.

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

 

[bernardc]

Great report sue, sounds like aviation business is just like contracting, trucking , and the charter fishing industries. great ways to work really hard invest all your money and stay poor

 

 

[Geoff13]

I found this thread whilst googling Syndicates. What a wealth of information.

 

 

[ozbear]

This thread is very informative thanks to all contributors just wondering the average cost of SIDS for the cessnas in particular the 152 and 172

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Those who don't study history . . . The 1960s boom period of light aircraft production in the U.S.A. came to a grinding halt in the late 1970 / early '80s because of the U.S. Product Liability laws, and the abuse of them by the "litigious society". The "Big Three" stopped building small, single-engine light aircraft, due to the ridiculous cost of product liability insurance. So we have been soldiering on for forty years, patching up aircraft that were originally designed for about a ten year useful life. As a result, these aircraft nowadays regularly incur repair costs that exceed the original purchase price. They are way past their "use by" date. The high maintenance costs are not the fault of the GA maintenance industry; it's the consequence of trying to keep operating "planned obsolescence" products well past their design lifetimes, as a consequence of the greed of the litigious society. The maintenance industry has actually worked wonders in keeping the damn things flying at all.

 

I owned a PA 28-140 in the '80s - purchased it third-hand for $10,500 in 1980 - and I was able to claim the operating costs against my income tax. I sold it in 1992, for

 

$ 16,000, because I could no longer use it as a business tool. Not counting engine/propeller overhaul costs - the Lyc 0-320 cost around $15K back then, to overhaul - it cost, on average, $4000 per year plus fuel. You could factor those costs up to to-day's prices, but that would still under-estimate the costs, because by now that airframe would be rotten with corrosion.

 

Also, the like of Lycoming etc engines can be overhauled once (if you do it when it's due) and remain reliable, and twice - if you look after them really well, like fly at least once a week - but the crankcase alloy gradually loses strength, and by the end of the third life, it's history. So engines that have been maintained "on condition" are a very poor purchase proposition. That's the situation with most GA aircraft of the sort you are talking about, nowadays.

 

To compound that, those aircraft were not required to have any declared fatigue life, when they were certificated. That omission by the regulatory authorities has had two results: Firstly, an unrealistic expectation that they would last indefinitely; and secondly, a belated "catch-up" by the regulatory authorities via Airworthiness Directive action. Secondly, the introduction of SIDs by some manufacturers - which are really a campaign to get these old aircraft scrapped, in disguise, because the difficulties for manufacturers in supplying spares for products they stopped building forty years ago are immense. Manufacturers who have not introduced SIDs will have their products scrapped by the "ageing aircraft" campaigns currently being run by most National Airworthiness Authorities.

 

So, there is no such thing as a "cheap" GA aircraft. The odd one that has been lovingly restored will cost accordingly. If you want to find one to restore, a tube-and-rag type may sound the least-worst option - but CASA has put the cost of maintaining an aircraft welder's licence through the roof, so that avenue isn't simple, either.

 

 

[rankamateur]

This thread is very informative thanks to all contributors just wondering the average cost of SIDS for the cessnas in particular the 152 and 172

I am more interested in the average cost of AIDS (Aircraft Induced Divorce Symdrome)!

 

 

[ozbear]

I am more interested in the average cost of AIDS (Aircraft Induced Divorce Symdrome)!

Is that like a STD sexually transmitted dept

 

 

[kaz3g]

I think a figure of around $3000 for the first annual and half that for succeeding ones on an older GA aircraft in good condition is inside the ball park.

 

The LAME will look a lot harder and longer when he/she doesn't know the aircraft.

 

Cessnas are plagued with the SIDS inspection now and the prospect of significant associated costs, hence some very cheap models on the market.

 

I am also aware of corrosion issues being identified in a couple of Warriors so PA28s are not immune. But they were proofed at manufacture and have that advantage (so do Cessnas built for floats).

 

The venerable Auster was touted as the "Steel Aeroplane" when it hit the market. It has a steel tube frame which was very effectively proofed on the inside with fish oil. I think PA22s were built using the same process to protect them but Nev will know for sure.

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't know how effective the oil in the tube treatment is Kaz. The tripacers and colts have inspections and I have seen quite a few Austers getting a fair bit of new tubing around the tailwheel area replaced, due rust. The turbo Twin Commanche I had had the tubes in the engine mounts near the turbos replaced due internal rust associated with the heat.. Nothing is immune. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

I purposely refrained from doing maths before I built my plane, it would've been to depressing.

 

As for a certified aircraft ,I couldn't afford one if I was totally honest, but with VH exp I can drop a lot of the costs ,no hiring out but I doubt the profit ( hahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah ) would offset the maintenance costs.

 

I still have a bit done at our local LAME , but most of the work is done by me.

 

I've had all kinds of fun machines and have never sat down to see if I can afford them, I have a good idea of what I can afford though, I just buy what I can then work hard enough to pay for it ,,,,,and I NEVER borrow money for toys , always save up and own them,

 

Matty

 

 

[M61A1]

I am more interested in the average cost of AIDS (Aircraft Induced Divorce Symdrome)!

If you factor in everything you have, then half of everything you will earn until your youngest child reaches 28 years, you should be close to the mark.

 

 

[facthunter]

It is a good method of getting you to part with your money.. Whatever you expect it to cost it will be more. It is also addictive for some... Be warned..Nev