Why are Jabs so damn hard to fly????

[shags_j]

Ok,

 

So I went to Warwick on the weekend and had a fly with Rob. Rob's a great instructor and I had a blast.

 

Only thing that I was thinking the whole time: Why is it so damn hard to fly a jab? Given an hour or two more and I think I would be fine but it seems like a heap of work compared to the tecnam.

 

Are other RA aircraft more like the jab and less like the tecnam? Is this a function of price?

 

 

[Tomo]

Hard?? I find them quite easy Sorry!

 

What did you find hard about them? I am genuinely interested, because you hear this a lot.

 

One thing that gets a lot of people is the hold off, Patience is the key to success in them.

 

 

[shags_j]

The hold off is a bit (I let the front wheel drop onto the tarmac once and the thing nearly went bush).

 

But you seem to have to do a lot of work. TOSS is 66knots (substantially higher than the tecnam). Requirement for Carby heat and you seem to have to work the rudder and stick a fair bit more than the tecnam.

 

I have no doubt that after a couple of hours I will be fine in it and think it's fairly easy to fly but it just seems like a lot more work than the tecnam.

 

 

[winsor68]

Just got back from .7 hrs in the J170...

 

Shags... And I thought it was me!!! lol

 

But that said perhaps part of the reason is this...

 

In the 6 weeks since my last lesson the aircraft had a tidy up... according to my instructor the controls had been lubricated, the motor had been tuned and I am sure they did more. Now because of the length of time between my last lesson and this one it is hard to be totally objective with this observation but... in my humble opinion... Compared to last lessons when the aircraft appeared to be sluggish and tired, today it felt so much better.

 

So... perhaps the Jabiru is an aircraft that requires fastidious and skillful nursing and tweaking to get the best from it... and perhaps a lot of school jabiru's don't always get that?

 

Winsor68

 

P.S. Jabiru 5229 is returning to its owner in Kingarooy... Tomorrow at 0600hrs I will be going in her with my instructor for the flight... . How is that for an introduction to cross country.

 

P.P.S. Can we have a Texan now please?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, they are difficult to master (unless your a legend like Tomo).

 

Rob has a 160 from memory?(is he the American Guy?)

 

All the makes of jab have there own special little quirks.

 

The main issue I have found when converting people to them, is the secondary effects of aileron. In the 160 at low airspeed ie, on final, the secondary effects are nothing short of chronic. Only out done (IMHO) by the 170. It requires precise co-ordination of rudder and aileron, but, theres a catch. The controls are not what we'd call well balanced. ie, the amount of pressure required on the rudder compared to aileron varies for each phase of flight, and also varies between aircraft of the same model.

 

Really pinning the speed on final helps with the hold off. A few knotts either side of 65 over the fence will cause you dramas somewhere down the track.

 

Full flap helps with the tendancy to float, and back pressure on the controls after touchdown should help sort out the squirliness.

 

The other thing to remember is the cockpit layout is rather different from the teccy. Opposite hands and all, which is no big drama, but certainly something to get used to at first.

 

I tell people all the time: The jab gives you no help at all. Its all you. (thats what makes them an exellent trainer)

 

cheers

 

 

[shags_j]

Exactly what Rob said in almost every respect Merv (yeah he is the American with the 160).

 

I will be going back occasionally to do a couple more hours in the Jab, unless I give up in frustration ;)

 

So are all the other ra's like this (lightwing, savannah etc)?

 

 

[shags_j]

I agree with all of that cficare but you sometimes have to wonder if there is a point that it becomes a bit superflouous (Sp? - I give up).

 

I mean a tecnam is harder to fly than a c172 (much more rudder input, effect of controls higher etc).

 

Jabiru is harder to fly than Tecnam...

 

 

[flightygirl]

So are all the other ra's like this (lightwing, savannah etc)?

 

speaking from a students perspective... who started in a Jab... with a bit of tecnam thrown in for good measure..and now training in a savannah... i found the Jab the hardest to learn in. The savannah almost flies itself and is very stable. a lot less work to do in the savvy...no flaps to put down... unless you want to... and it just seems to want to glide right onto the runway. I found the Jab very hard to fly and ended up with a tendency to over control everything.

 

Having said that... i do plan to get used to flying the Jab again... i think it will be important as i will develop skills that i wouldnt get flying the savannah. still like the savvy better though.

 

sorry Jab people.... she may be ugly... but she flies so much nicer!

 

 

[shags_j]

I reckon a savannah with the big bush wheels looks pretty sexy.

 

 

[shags_j]

If anyone tells you otherwise, they're kidding themselves ;)

 

 

[flying dog]

Shags,

 

Don't stress.

 

Relax. Take a deep breath and feel confident.

 

All planes, even ones of the same make are different. As with cars.

 

If you have flown one type of plane for a long time, getting into and flying another one will be "difficult".

 

It is nothing to worry about. As you said youself, probably after a while you would be ok with flying the Jab.

 

PAX, Fuel, cargo, TRIM. All these can change the way a plane flys and if you change too many of these at once, you are going to be overloaded with the new stuff and not enjoy the flight.

 

Talking of the rudder. Some planes have big ones, some have small ones. (As with ..... Don't worry.)

 

If you fly a plane with a big rudder, you don't need much pedal input to get a result. Going to a plane with a smaller rudder, you will have to work the pedals more to get the same result.

 

Likewise, going from a small rudder plane to a big rudder plane. Equal pedal input will get massive change in the plane and you will be yawing all over the place.

 

Trim is something people forget too. Remember to trim the plane. Leaving the trim lever where you find it when you get in is not helping for an enjoyable flight.

 

Don't worry too much. Just check things and make sure too many things aren't changing at once, like pax weight, fuel carried, etc.

 

Good luck, happy flying.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting comments but you are lumping several different wings, fuses, empennage and powers all in the one basket. Jab threads always seem to get out of control because, for example Tomo comments on a J120, and someone is having a problem with a J170, or someone else is flying a 230 where the elevator leverage moment is much bigger etc.

 

Need to get apples for apples first.....

 

 

[dazza 38]

Exactly what Rob said in almost every respect Merv (yeah he is the American with the 160).I will be going back occasionally to do a couple more hours in the Jab, unless I give up in frustration ;)

 

So are all the other ra's like this (lightwing, savannah etc)?

Hi Shags, dont give up on flying her, i reckon the more a/c people learn to fly and be checked out on, it improves the persons flying skills.I mean there is a difference if a pilot has x amount of hours all being flown in one aircraft type.To another pilot doing the same amount of hours in ten different types.If that makes sense.Plus it stops boredum (is that a word), setting in, flying the same a/c.

 

 

[Tomo]

Yes, they are difficult to master (unless your a legend like Tomo).All the makes of jab have there own special little quirks.

The main issue I have found when converting people to them, is the secondary effects of aileron. In the 160 at low airspeed ie, on final, the secondary effects are nothing short of chronic. Only out done (IMHO) by the 170. It requires precise co-ordination of rudder and aileron, but, theres a catch. The controls are not what we'd call well balanced. ie, the amount of pressure required on the rudder compared to aileron varies for each phase of flight, and also varies between aircraft of the same model.

 

Really pinning the speed on final helps with the hold off. A few knotts either side of 65 over the fence will cause you dramas somewhere down the track.

 

Full flap helps with the tendancy to float, and back pressure on the controls after touchdown should help sort out the squirliness.

 

The other thing to remember is the cockpit layout is rather different from the teccy. Opposite hands and all, which is no big drama, but certainly something to get used to at first.

I'm definitely no legend Motz... gotta get that outa your head

 

I give it a go.... anyway.

 

Turbo is quite correct though, funnily enough I haven't flown a 160 yet, done the old SP's 200, 230, and 120. Out of all them, the 230 is the so called 'easiest' to land, 120 I reckon cruises true as a die (well the one I fly does) but you gotta do exactly what Motz describes above otherwise your looking at a little more mucking around.

 

Jabiru's are pretty unforgiving, even if they don't stall properly, they still can bite.

 

The Teccy is one I haven't flown yet, might do it on the weekend if I can, will be over a YCAB flying the Cessna on Saturday.

 

Oh yes, the Savvy does fly very nicely, and is... surprisingly easy!

 

 

[Thx1137]

Having learned in a sportstar I had a heck of a time for the first 4 hours or so. The first hour or two was simply amazingly difficult for me.

 

It is mice and easy now that I have plenty of experience of course :-)

 

 

[FlyBye]

Why are Jabs so damn hard to fly????

 

I did my conversion to RAA in a Jab230 and I reckon that you only have to look at the size of the ailerons to get your first clue. At 120kts they are great but at 65kts you need to be fairly busy with your feet.

 

 

[shags_j]

Tomo, You gotta try the tecnam. If you ever in YCAB I'd say go for a flight with Zane at prosky. They realyl are a beautiful machien if you can afford the $!00k price tag.

 

 

[facthunter]

Jabiru.

 

Generalising, but the thing about the jab is that it will teach you not to overcontrol, and not to fight aileron with rudder. You have to make it do the right thing, gently but with persistence. It won't do it for you. While you might not enjoy this at first, it will make you a better pilot. Some pilots get a bit angry with it, because they are angry with themselves at finding it difficult. It's not really, but a bit different. You must be ahead of it, and keep the weight off the bl##dy nosewheel.. Nev

 

 

[David F]

Savannah

 

Not ugly Rachel functional and practical

 

Dave

 

 

[flightygirl]

Savvy

 

Hey Dave...

 

im a total savvy convert now... i love my savvy... and no longer find them ugly. well not mine at least :thumb_up:

 

Not ugly Rachel functional and practical Dave

[Vev]

Spot on Nev … just remain ahead of the ac, use coordinated gentle inputs, be patient on landings as you hold off and you can make the old Jab sing like a bird.

 

Get behind the curve, over input and over correct and you will spend your day in frustration ballooning on landings and doing go-arounds.

 

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[turboplanner]

Right Jack, hop in a 170 on an windy day, let me know when you're going out, and I'll come down to Tyabb with a camera. In cold air it's usually the pilot that sings like a crow.

 

It's easy for Nev, he's a Jedi.

 

 

[Vev]

Turbo,

 

 

You sound angry … you really need to listen to Nev… he has already given you the secret Grasshopper!

 

 

Besides how much runway do you guys need over at Tooradin to land a little old 170 when your white line is wider than the Tyabb runway?

 

 

Think Zen Turbo, and all will be yours (including the 170). :thumb_up:

 

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[facthunter]

more..

 

I haven't flown the 170. That's the one with the larger wing ,is it not?

 

 

[Vev]

Yes Nev ... same wing on the 230 & 430 too