Overtaking in the circuit????

[Spin]

Say what you like about our CEO, he's not likely to be accused of being boring! His column in the latest mag includes a rant about "cross country" circuits and concludes with the advice that it's ok for a following aircraft to turn base before the one ahead if they are flying wider than you need to:ah_oh:!!

 

Sounds like a recipe for a disaster or at least a punch up, to me.

 

 

[Ultralights]

I havnt read the said article yet, but the Only time i will and have overtaken in the circuit is under the direction of ATC at bankstown. I will not overtake another aircraft in the circuit at an uncontrolled airport, if stuck behind someone doing cross country circuits, and there is no one following me, then make my touch n go's, Stop and go's. or if your really impatiant, then communicate with the wide circuit pilot and advise/ask if he/she doesnt mind you turning early crosswind/base.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I can't say that I've encountered such a situation. It would have to be a really wide circuit with a much slower aircraft, which is contrary to normal practice. Even then you'd have to be careful that you could land and clear the runway without causing the other aircraft to extend, otherwise it would not be good airmanship, even if it were technically kosher.

 

I don't think I'd do it without asking the other aircraft if they would mind. With airmanship, to reverse an old adage, it is probably better to ask permission than to beg forgiveness.

 

There again, my magazine must be doing a cross country via the great circle route, so I haven't read the article yet.

 

 

[Quick]

I find that as I fly a WB503 Drifter, my circut size is very small, as there is no point in doing larger ones. So in that case, I find my self doing tight circuts and often 'undertaking' as my circut is within the larger A/C's one. Before I do 'undertake' I will get on the radio and see if thats fine with the other A/C. Usually it is.

 

 

[jetjr]

This needs clearing up, Id reckon he means slow aircraft doing wide circuits. Not the normal other way around.

 

For something slower to turn inside faster one will see them landing at the same time and faster having to go around and subsequent emotions.

 

Slower AC doing wide circuits is an old RA vs GA sticking point often raised by commercial pilots. Id think this is a reason they give to not allow RA into Controlled Airspace.

 

Keep in mind they are terrified of hitting slower AC in uncontrolled strips.

 

They see circuit as requiring to be fast,safe and as efficient as possible, if someone is out for a leisurely cruise - leave circut and return. Simple airmanship required from both sides.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jetr, it's also C150 vs the rest in GA, so really it's a people vs people thing - Human Factors.

 

If you are flying the slower aircraft, it's only a matter of manners to keep the circuits as tight as practicable.

 

 

[facthunter]

Circuit manners.

 

The way I've always understood it, slower fly lower and closer in. Turboprop are higher and faster and wider out. The actual variation in circuit time is made more even than might be expected. A jet can easily do a circuit in 8 minutes. and the last thing you need is something like an X-air etc doing a long final into a reasonably strong wind, to cause a bit of chaos.

 

The difficulty is judging the sequence with the differing heights and tracks.

 

I haven't read the article. Tizzard would know his stuff, because he is very experienced. Better read it carefully. The suggeston might be qualified . I can't remember overtaking anybody in the circuit, but it could arise where someone has a difficulty with a system or something. Some flying schools do seem to encourage "larger" circuits. Is this to make more money? I personally don't like them, they are generally not necessary, or desireable... Nev

 

 

[Thx1137]

I think we are talking generally, not that once in lifetime event where something special is required. It also depends on what we call overtaking. I often have cubs behind me cut in front for base and final a few seconds before I turn for base. As long as they do not impact my normal ciruit and I know where they are and what they are doing I don't mind.

 

I don't like the idea of overtaking in the circuit though if someone just wants to get down quicker and blasts past me on downwind.

 

For the "cross country downwind". I have been tempted to turn inside but haven't. It is rather annoying though because I find that I have to fly out of the circuit area to get behind them or do an orbit. It just doesn't flow and to me that increases risk.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

no clearing up needed, the article says if the plane infront is slower, you can overtake, by the time you are on final, theyll turn base, and then youll be well clear, after all youll be going faster, and accelerating away from them, while they will be puttering along at say 50kts, and never catch up...

...

I believe that you cannot generalise in this manner, as different circumstances within the parameters we've been discussing can have vastly different outcomes.

 

In the above scenario, it may be fine if the faster a/c is doing a touch and go or can exit the runway at the point that it reaches taxi speed.

 

How about a situation with a small jet landing ahead of a low performance a/c at a regional uncontrolled strip. That would be a very significant performance difference. Lets ignore the fact that the jet is more likely to do a straight-in approach or the fact that the low performance a/c may offer to let the jet land first or even the fact that the circuit heights will be different as well.

 

Often these runways are not wide enough to turn around and may not have a taxiway at the point needed to avoid backtracking. Further, turning nodes are often at the runway end points.

 

I'll use YYWG as an example as I'm rather familiar with it.

 

Small jet lands and after reaching taxi speed has to go to the turning node at the far end of the runway. Then has to taxi just over 1,000m to reach taxiway Charlie. By the time the jet has cleared the runway (tail behind the holding point) it has taken about 5-6 minutes since crossing the threshold. If there was another a/c at the holding point on the first taxiway, then add a further delay as the jet either has to proceed to taxiway Bravo (about another 700m) or invite the waiting aircraft (at the holding point) onto the runway so they can manoeuvre around one another. Either way, it means the slower aircraft on Base, must be a fair way out not to encounter a conflict and have to go-around, but the possibility does exist under favourable circumstances.

 

There are quite a few a/c smaller than a jet that have to use the turning nodes at the end of the runways and then backtrack to clear the runway. Single and twin turboprop for instance, and the singles have been known to do circuits.

 

{In explanation as to why the jet may invite the waiting a/c onto the runway, taxiway Bravo has been closed for six months due to construction work}

 

I doubt we will come up with any generalisations other than:-

 

• Apply the rules.
   
   
  
• Communicate.
   
   
  
• Demonstrate good airmanship.
   
   
  

 

 

I suppose that our conundrum here is the dividing line between someone being rude and powering past an a/c in the circuit (as mentioned by Thx1137) vs simply flying a faster, closer circuit with significant horizontal separation.

 

 

[flying dog]

(No it was NOT me....)

 

Ok, with all this talk:

 

No names, no pack drills.

 

RPT taxiing out for takeoff.

 

Someone calls doing a straight in with their plane.

 

PROBLEM! 20 Kt head wind!

 

The poor RPT was sitting there for about 5 minutes while this plane SLOWLY made its way to the strip.

 

He said that he told the RPT to take off, but I guess the guys were either too polite or too worried if anything happened, they just waited.

 

IMHO, the other plane should have done a go-round and let the RPT take off.....

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi guys, at Boonah at the moment, on weekends, their have been a few C 172's coming from either Cooly or Archerfield to do circuits. Last week whilst i was in the circuit, a 172, was doing massive circuits.Boonah is 800 metres long, i normaly pull the power back approx half way along down wind.Anyway last Saturday, i was number 2 to this cessna, i was pulling power but abeam the threshold, and extending my down wind to keep separation to the cessna.I understand that with students, doing a bigger circuit, gives the student more time to get their head around, things. But as Matt has mentioned, some of these downwinds and Final's are very very long. Its like their flying a Flying Fortress or some thing.I like to call them "Bomber Command " circuits.LOL

 

Ps- i better add that i was flying the eaglet, so the speeds where similar to the 172

 

 

[Spin]

Hi Daryl, I've experienced the same thing with what I assume are students from elsewhere. It can be a bit annoying, but they are the last people I would consider cutting up in the circuit, a) they're learning and even the toppest top gun was once there, b) Boonah is probably a little daunting for a GA driver who has only ever landed on several thousand metres of flat tarmac.

 

I suppose the reason I raised the topic in the first place was that I thought it a bit reckless of "that tizzy fella" to suggest something from his soapbox that might be misinterpreted. I can just see the "discussion" following a bomber command type deciding to go around because, as he sees it he has been cut off. The other issue is that I recall from another recent thread that the view that you MUST be able to glide to the field from anywhere in the circuit is not universally held, even amongst RA pilots.

 

As several others have said on the thread, if you're going to deviate from accepted procedure - communicate. Basic airmanship will take you a long way.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Carl, i dont mind it, i dont mine following them to keep separation.It does make it a bit harder for the airsport students, adjusting their circuit, but having said that, i think it is a great learning experience for them to have to do a circuit different than what they are used to.Their was only me, the 172, and Peter converting a GA pilot to RAA, in the golf.

 

I personally wouldnt cut in front, i think it would create uncertainty.As you have said, coming from bitumen to a undulating Airfield like ours and getting over the trees on 22, I think they have enough on their plate.

 

Apparently, the airfield users at Boonah, are "taking over from the council", what i mean is, the council is going to give the airfield users the money every year to run the airfield.The airfield users already pay money to do unlimited movements a year. I think it is around a couple of hundred, per a/c per year.Not bad i think. Apparently when this happens which i think is about now.All visiting a/c will have to pay a minor landing charge, unless they are apart of Flying tigers, Airsport or the Boonah Gliding Club.This information comes from Ian Mc gregor, he is the tresurer.The charge is i think about $5 or something per day.It will up to the airfield users to get the Rego numbers, and sent it to the council.

 

Cheers Buddy

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Yet another good reason why I need to get my membership sorted with the Tigers! Don't need too many, they ( and you Dazza!!) are a great bunch of pilots. Didn't get there today as we had a day full of trike TIF's- perfect day for it today. CU soon.

 

Cheers

 

Neil.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yet another good reason why I need to get my membership sorted with the Tigers! Don't need too many, they ( and you Dazza!!) are a great bunch of pilots. Didn't get there today as we had a day full of trike TIF's- perfect day for it today. CU soon.Cheers

Neil.

Thank you very much Neil,

 

 

[Spin]

Sounds like a positive move Dazza, I must sort out membership too, always feel bad about the cups of coffee etc I've had there - good bunch of blokes.

 

 

[Mazda]

If someone is doing OCTA circuits, they are the ones who won't make the field if they have a problem, you don't have to be forced wide, just slow down and fly a normal circuit.

 

If you need more spacing you could always land, taxi back to the holding point and take off again.

 

There are 3 circuit heights too for aircraft of different performance.

 

Or if flying somewhere with ATC, you could request an early turn to overtake!

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

basically, they do their 747 ccts,

Cameron93 and All,

 

You might be surprised how small a B747 circuit can be!!

 

A B767 even tighter --- because you will be flying a little bit slower --- particularly when you are going downwind at 800'.

 

Certainly smaller than some of the circuits I see being done by "certain" flying schools around my area.

 

----jet can easily do a circuit in 8 minutes

Indeed, very easily !! There are some strange misconceptions about the speed of some aircraft, particularly small turboprop aircraft ---- even if they are a bit faster than a Drifter.The fastest circuit I have seen, in a B747 Classic, T/0 to touchdown, was a few seconds under 4 minutes.

 

IMHO, the other plane should have done a go-round and let the RPT take off.....

I most certainly disagree with this, if the RPT crew were unwilling, for any reason, to delay the takeoff until the aircraft that HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY landed, that is their business. Indeed, if the aircraft on final had gone around, it would probably (at least in the minds of the RPT crew) have just been another airborne obstruction.

 

When you have right of way, you have right of way ---- take it ---- you have as much right to the airspace as any other aircraft.

 

A big problem that has developed, is that far too many Regional and similar pilots have come to expect, and all to often actually demand other aircraft to give way ---- don't encourage them into such bad (and non-compliant) behavior.

 

There are 3 circuit heights too for aircraft of different performance.

Remember, these are only recommended heights, based on somebodies (mis)conception that the bigger the aircraft, the faster the speeds --- ain't necessarily so ---- and quite large aircraft are capable of "quite interesting performance" in circuits conducted as low as 600 agl, commonly at 800agl.

 

Regards,

 

 

[dazza 38]

Sounds like a positive move Dazza, I must sort out membership too, always feel bad about the cups of coffee etc I've had there - good bunch of blokes.

Hi Carl, there isnt a membership at airsport, i think, Ian told me that anybody who trains there or hires there, they will not have to pay landing charges, because the A/c owners pay the $200 dollars per year for unlimited movments. He also mention that if we have friends who land there and know us they wont be charged either.

Sorry my above thread was a bit confusing .Cheers

 

 

[Spin]

Yeah, I meant at the Tigers - even if only to compensate for the rest of the family making use of the toilets;)

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yeah, I meant at the Tigers - even if only to compensate for the rest of the family making use of the toilets;)

Good point, i will check out what it costs, on Saturday.The Drifter fly-in :big_grin: there on Sep 19. Sounds like a great get together.

 

 

[wizzard1964]

....The charge is i think about $5 or something per day....

Landing fees will be closer to $10.00 per landing..

 

(It SHOULD appear in the next ERSA).

 

unless you are associated with the airfield in some way... (eg an invited guest). Fees are collected by a specialised company, nothing to do with the Council..

 

Outside flying schools have been getting a free ride of late, and making the most of it !

 

TTFN

 

 

[dazza 38]

Thanks Wizzard for the correct Information.Your right about the outside flying schools getting a free ride.It was very early in the morning when i was talking to Ian, i must have remembered things incorrectly.Thanks for the correction.

 

 

[wizzard1964]

Thanks Wizzard for the correct Information.Your right about the outside flying schools getting a free ride.It was very early in the morning when i was talking to Ian, i must have remembered things incorrectly.Thanks for the correction.

It was going to be around $5.00 but the management decided to make the cost about the same as the nearest "cheap" airfield . . .

ttfn

 

 

[Exadios]

Say what you like about our CEO, he's not likely to be accused of being boring! His column in the latest mag includes a rant about "cross country" circuits and concludes with the advice that it's ok for a following aircraft to turn base before the one ahead if they are flying wider than you need to:ah_oh:!! Sounds like a recipe for a disaster or at least a punch up, to me.

We do it all the time.

 

We get a lot of flying school flights. They fly Cessna 747s. From the time they turn on base to the time that they touch down is about 3 minutes. The time from our base turn to touch down is about 30 seconds.