Getting a Trike/Microlight license?

[Tomo]

Ok, so I'm being rather ambitious here, but I thought It'd be cool to see what is actually involved in getting ones Trike license.

 

Most of you probably know my history already, so don't really need to cover that. Other than I have my RAA 3 axis license with most Endorsements.

 

I Have a friend with a few trikes, so it'd be cool to be able to join in with the fun in that area as well. Can't beat the Drifter, but, you know... something different didn't hurt anyone. :big_grin:

 

Any schools with-in a stones throw of the SE Qld corner?

 

Thanks! :thumb_up:

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

next time your out at the aerodrome, wander over and talk to the other guy.... or wait until w&w..we will have trikes there as well.:big_grin:

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Hey Tomo as a 32( weight shift) aircraft that falls under the same general exemptions to the CAO's that all RA- Aus aircraft fly, the pilot licencing rules are the same. The only difference is that powered weight shift also comes under CAO 101.55 (from memory) that is managed by the Hang Gliding Federation of Australia ( HGFA). The training syllabus is slightly different between the two organisations, and obviously weight shift control has some differences to 3 axis, specifically relating to billow shift principles, pendulum physics, and high drag wings, and basic weight shift control vs aerodynamic control surfaces.

 

At the end of the day, one would think it was just a conversion, if you already have an RA Aus Pilot cert. but in reality, and depending on the student, it can be a little more involved.

 

Anyway, you got a taste at Inglewood, and we'd be happy to pursue this further, just drop in at Caboolture next time you're over.

 

You'll be a busy lad, what with Jabs, drifters, GA and trikes- that's one hell of a list!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...The only difference is that powered weight shift also comes under CAO 101.55 (from memory) that is managed by the Hang Gliding Federation of Australia ( HGFA)...

Both RA Aus and HGFA register and manage Trikes. I'd lean toward RA Aus.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Tomo; It is really simple. All you have to do is a Weight Shift Endorsement (Aircraft Grouping: B) on your RA-Aus Certificate.

 

It should not be hard, but the instructor will want to be sure that you have got the hang of it:laugh: as weight shift have opposite control sense to 3-axis. ie. to bank left, right control input and vice versa. Same applies to pitch. What the instructor will be checking on is that you don't revert to 3-axis control inputs when task loaded.

 

Yaw is harder to achieve in weight shift because there's no rudder, so is usually not a consideration and you don't need a balance ball. There are some different techniques for several situations too. Examples would be; to lose altitude quickly in a weight shift, you do steep "S" turns versus side slip in a 3-axis and cross wind landings in a strong cross wind (like 20-25kn) also differ significantly.

 

Go for it. I love my trike, but one day I will probably do the 3-axis endorsement, just for the experience. Had a great flight on Saturday; Back seat in a Nanchang doing formation and aeros. There's photos of the Nanchang among other aircraft from the John Duigan Centenary day at my photo site, linked in my signature.

 

 

[Tomo]

Thanks a lot guys, definitely food for thought.

 

 

[Tracktop]

mmmm

 

Don't underestimate the time and effort ( and cost ) involved in converting. You will need to develop a parallel primary control response ( I think it is called)

 

to your 3 axis one you already have. THIS CAN TAKE LONGER ( more hours in the sky) to correctly develop than someone who hasn't already developed one ( 3 axis response) yet.

 

We have lost High hrs 3 axis, low hrs trike pilots in the past. Don't go in with the "it cannot take much" attitude or you may well join them. Not a result anyone would want to see.

 

I am not at all suggesting that any of those lost in the past had this attitude, more a reflection of our training requirements, understanding, and lack of emphasis of this issue.

 

While it is a well recognised fact within the trike community, I don't believe it has been identified and correctly linked to events in the past.

 

While I haven't personally been down that track, I guess with youth on your side Tomo, the path would be easier for you than an older person.

 

I would think also that the more 3 axis hrs / experience / currency you have, the harder it would be as well.

 

 

[NWpilot]

Tomo, I started on Trikes and then converted over to 3 axis, hardest thing for me was ground movements, when you want to turn left in a trike you push with your right foot...............so watch those wing tips when you start.

 

Saying that, as i started with Trikes, and they do not have a rudder, i was a lazy pilot when it came to 3 axis, (to start with)

 

always sliping and sliding in turns flying out of balance etc. It took me a few hours to relise i had feet and i could use them to help me turn, and land. You wont have that problem as you are going the other way around, but also remember, coming in on finals on a bumpy day, you have no assistance from the rudder, cos there aint one . just squirt the power she will come straight, what ever you do dont try and straighten it with your feet (rudder) or the tricycle wheel will not be facing where you want it to..

 

I LOVE FLYING TRIKES, although i dont really get a chance to anymore, but for just floating around and having fun, there is nothing like the trike for wind in your hair and bugs in your teeth type flying.

 

What ever you decide to do, good luck and enjoy.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I started in GA, had a break for family / kids then did Trike as my initial RAA licenses and then 3 axis for the J230. I would have thought that 5-10hrs would likely cover the endorsment. Bear in mind however that the biannual flight reviews are needed for each style, not just one for both.

 

The hardest thing I found was the rate at which a trike can loose height. Its nothing to be at full circuit height turning final on a close in circuit and still put the mains down on the piano keys. In my J230 if I could do that it would likely be the piano keys at the other end of the strip! They can also gain height at an equally phenominal rate which when added to a slight head wind can provide some speccy takeoff's...

 

So, if you find yourself doing S's to loose height it must be cause your going down wind, or are over the top of the point that you want to land on!!!

 

Actually that is a slight exageration buit for those that are used to 3 axis rates of loss of altitudes in a trike will remind you of the aerodynamic properties of a rock

 

But, Fun!! Actually Tomo, I think they can better a drifter for fun per smile. Although the costs of trikes have risen dramatically as they moved to the 912 motor, to the point that in my mind they dont represent good value for money anymore when you consider what other flying alternates are available for the same $$$. WHen they were $25k to $30k new then they represented a segment of aircraft that didnt have too many competitors and as such the disadvantages that the trikes have (dont go there if you want a long cross country in winter) didnt really matter. Now that they are more than double that cost, I would be reconsidering ownership and they arent like 3 axis aircraft where you can find a club and hire the aircraft by the hour, or at least not where I learned.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Bear in mind however that the biannual flight reviews are needed for each style, not just one for both.

If you are endorsed on more than one aircraft group, you don't need additional BFR but each one should be on a different group to the previous one.

 

<Pedant mode on>

 

Its biennial (every 2 years) not biannual (twice a year)

 

<Pedant mode off>

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

John

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I did chase for exact advise from RAA when I found myself in that position and was told then that I needed 2 reviews, however that wasnt said with an immediate response, rather it required a number of ums and arr's as the position was considered. I guess in retrospect that is the safest position to be in, but if your approach is an endorsed approach then I can live with that approach as well.

 

As to the second point......yeah, in retrospect I knew that, but I suspect given that the usage of the work is about as often as the term describes Im likely to make the same mistake again....

 

Andy

 

 

[skeptic36]

Although the costs of trikes have risen dramatically as they moved to the 912 motor, to the point that in my mind they dont represent good value for money anymore when you consider what other flying alternates are available for the same $$$. WHen they were $25k to $30k new then they represented a segment of aircraft that didnt have too many competitors and as such the disadvantages Andy

Hi Andy,

I don't think the cost of getting into triking has increased as much as people think, rather it is the upmarket machine people demand these days that doesn't come for nothing. The same thing has happened across everything whether it is a house,car, boat or whatever. As you can see by the attached current day advert, if you are still happy with what people where flying 25 years ago then $30k is almost enough.

 

Regards Bill

 

[ATTACH]11392.vB[/ATTACH]

 

P.S don't get me wrong, I'll be moving up to a 4 stroke as soon as I have the cash.

 

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...what ever you do dont try and straighten it with your feet (rudder) or the tricycle wheel will not be facing where you want it to......

In addition, the wheel does act a little like a rudder and will introduce some yaw, as does when the PAX hangs out the side. Actually the latter has more effect. Always brief the PAX not to lean out of the aircraft on final :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

JohnThanks for clearing that up, I did chase for exact advise from RAA when I found myself in that position and was told then that I needed 2 reviews, however that wasnt said with an immediate response, rather it required a number of ums and arr's as the position was considered. I guess in retrospect that is the safest position to be in, but if your approach is an endorsed approach then I can live with that approach as well.

 

Andy

I'm pretty sure I recall reading that in the RAA Ops manual.. ie. alternate aircraft types at each biennial.

 

 

[Tracktop]

would have thought that 5-10hrs would likely cover the endorsment.

:gerg:

 

That's the sort of statements and expectations that I believe are very wrong IMO and should NOT be promoted.

 

The last guy we lost around here was GA instructor, Glider Instructor, RAA pilot and about 25hrs trike and he unfortunately is no longer with us. Many in the past have done it in low hour conversion ( my belief - pure good luck rather than good training or good flying) .

 

I believe there are a lot more than is realised that haven't survived the 3 axis to trike conversion. Look behind the low trike pilot hr accidents and "has high 3 axis experience" keeps coming up regularly, though never attributed to the accident cause.

 

Sorry if I am treading on toes here, but I strongly believe it is a issue that needs addressing and correcting somehow.

 

Ray

 

 

[Tomo]

G'day Ray, I see what you mean, but do you think extra training would/is going to help in that area?

 

I mean, you could do another 10hrs flying with an instructor, have no trouble... then go and stuff up later on due to reverting back to whatever.

 

I believe it is just making sure you know what type of aircraft you're in, and if you are a multimillion hr 3 axis pilot, it probably wouldn't be the smartest move to start flying trikes...?

 

Same as flying helicopters and 3 axis I reckon... Dick Smith was joking one day and said he wouldn't want to get the approach speeds mixed up between the trike and Jet!

 

Happy flying.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Whilst there have undoubtedly been incidents of experienced 3-axis pilots coming to grief after doing weightshift conversions, I'm not convinced that its either common or likely. Initially pilots wanting to convert tend to under-estimate the hours required - the more successful ones realise this once they have started. Good conversion training is obviously important but a key factor is for them to recognise & accept that, until they have gained experience, their limits are those of a low hour trike pilot not a high hour 3-axis pilot. If they do so, there is no reason why they can't join the many pilots who fly both types competently.

 

Ultimately its only a different control system - most car drivers learn to ride a motorbike without trying to change gear using their left hand or accelerating with their right foot !

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Its my belief that much is made of the control reversal, yet I cant remeber a time that I Inadvertantly found myself going the wrong way due to reversal. I dont believe im anything but mr average and if I can do it so can all the other Mr Averages. If I do find myself making a mistake its much more likely to be related to currency in type than control reversal. And that issue is not a trike to 3 axis to trike issue alone. If you fly both regularly I believe its unlikey to be an issue.

 

As to the point of the low time conversion, I still believe 5-10hrs will do it. But, no matter what I think its the instructor and the individual pilot that will determine just how long it takes. That said, if your Mr Average, have your 3 axis certificate and have done th 5-10hrs and the instructor still doesnt seem intrerested in signing you off, and your honest withyourself about your own abilities I'd have to start questioning why at the same time reckognising that its much better to be thankful that there is someone in the backseat than wishing it was so. Fortunately the $$ associated per hour will effectively mean that whether its 5 or 10 or even 20 hrs in the overall scheme of things wont matter a damn, unlike the GA reality. I guess if like some, this would be endorsement/type conversion number 26 for the year then maybe the $$ will be significant.

 

Anyway, we have moved away from the whole point of the thread.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Its my belief that much is made of the control reversal, yet I cant remeber a time that I Inadvertantly found myself going the wrong way due to reversal. I dont believe im anything but mr average and if I can do it so can all the other Mr Averages. If I do find myself making a mistake its much more likely to be related to currency in type than control reversal. And that issue is not a trike to 3 axis to trike issue alone. If you fly both regularly I believe its unlikey to be an issue....

I'm inclined to agree.

 

I drive a car by holding the bottom quadrants of the wheel most of the time, but on occasion I hold the top quadrants... Oh.. that's control reversal, and I've never turned the wrong way for that reason. I have more trouble with swapping between cars that have reversed windscreen wiper / turning indicator controls and that is worth dwelling upon for a moment.

 

From time to time over the years my wife and I have had cars with opposite windscreen wiper / turning indicator controls. I find that it always takes me some finite time to acclimatise and not make mistakes at the vehicle change-over time. But here's an interesting situation that occurred recently. I hopped into a different car that has the same sense as mine, but was not my wife's. Guess what. I reversed the sense on one occasion during the early part of the drive (not the first couple of uses). So in my subconscious mind I had changed cars and had to change control sense, despite the fact that this car was the same sense as mine and my conscious mind realised that fact. My subconscious mind wasn't registering the car type, but just rather that it was "the other car".

 

Now let's translate to aircraft. If you are used to a yoke in a 3-axis, then you could imagine that the control frame is a giant yoke, but you are hanging onto the bottom of it, not the top... similar to the car situation I've just described. In this case it isn't control reversal (in roll), from a mental perspective. At a stretch you could have a similar mental picture for pitch. If, however you are used to a stick in the 3-axis, then it is definitely control reversal, because you cannot hold the stick below floor level (pivot point).

 

Why is all this a problem or not? IMHO, it all comes down to HF and consious / subconscious brain control. When we start flying, everything is new and we get task loaded very easily. As our subconscious brain becomes programmed, little input from the conscious brain is required for the same tasks and so we get comfortable and perform more tasks with little conscious thought. This has been covered quite well in various HF articles.

 

In the situation of moving to an aircraft with control reversal, the programming of the subconscious starts again (note, not reprogrammed, because you are presumably going to fly both). Now you have become comfortable in both types and been let loose. One day, you aren't paying quite as much attention as you should and your subconscious perhaps selects the wrong procedure.

 

So It isn't control reversal per say that is the problem, but this just increases the risk a bit because in critical situations an error of control could have significant consequences (eg. when landing or flying in formation). It all hinges on HF. Keeping your wits about you and being conscious of monitoring your subconscious activity, particularly when task loaded because that is the time when things are likely to take the wrong track.

 

PS. My 3-axis control experience amounts to roughly 5 minutes during a short glider flight.

 

 

[Tracktop]

Yes Tomo I believe it is totally hrs related. Having said that each person is different and would require a different amount of retraining.

 

I am not an instructor nor a 3 axis pilot, so I don't know the full solution to the problem.

 

The hrs required may also depend on the conditions the training has been conducted in as well, but I really am not sure?

 

Once a parallel primary response has been learned then flying both forms is not an issue, and certainly there are many ( including high hr professional pilots ) that also fly trike regularly.

 

Hit by a gust, thermal, or just plain beginner flying may require an immediate response to correct the situation. Respond the wrong way and you have the potential to make matters much, much worse very quickly, perhaps even unrecoverable especially if involved in takeoff or landing where height is not available.

 

John, normally I value your opinion and bow to your far greater experience, but on this I very much disagree. Yes the official findings from accidents do not highlight this as a problem.

 

Never the less the facts are there if you care to look for them.

 

I indicated earlier this is one of my pet subjects.

 

Last year I was training at the same time, same place as the pilot the 3 axis pilot that came to grief.

 

I was new at this game so did a lot of research, sole searching and talking to other pilots, including high hour commercial pilots, GA instructors and trike pilots and instructors.

 

My issue and motivation was - was my new chosen hobby and the decision to spend $65k+ and a heap of time and $ training greatly flawed and unsafe to the extreme.

 

Should I seriously reconsider my options.

 

If someone with so much experience, was who was very safety conscious could come to grief so easily, what had I let myself in for.

 

This research lead me to believe ( correctly I hope) that there is a real issue with 3 axis conversion training.

 

Interestingly the 3 axis instructors I discussed it with believed to go trike to 3 axis was not really an issue.

 

Before my flying time ( about 5 years ago), another trike pilot also came to grief in my area. Different instructor / training etc.

 

SAME issue - hi 3 axis low trike. Both pilot were highly respected flyers within the flying community.

 

I think there may also have been another one as well about the 6 year ago mark with similar flying history.

 

Research of trike accidents around the world often had the same facts stated in the limited information available - " hi 3 axis low trike hrs.

 

From where I stand - common and likely. ie All recent trike fatalities in my area have this as a common factor and it appears to be common enough around the globe. ( enough to be greatly concerned and needing addressing)

 

I AGAIN SAY I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS WAS THE CAUSE OF THESE FATALITIES. IT IS NOT MY PLACE TO MAKE THAT DECISION NOR WAS IT THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION. However the facts are still there and the issue is known and accepted as a problem.

 

Andy, as I read it, you may not have had any issues as your 3 axis may not have had a lot of currency with it, and maybe the hrs were low?

 

My guess is the higher the 3 axis hrs the more established the 3 axis primal response is , so the longer it will take to build a new one.

 

I will go out on a limb here and suggest that ( from my perception / experience) trike flying is very much seat of the pants flying. Very much a touchy feely thing in a responsive machine that needs to be kept within its designed flight envelope. You don't so much look and control, more an unconscious feel and respond as one with the trike. In the early part of training / conversion if the respond is the wrong way things go pear shaped very quickly.

 

( maybe) The non 3 axis trained pilot has many other factors to slow their training down to a pace that allows development of their trike primal response. The 3 axis pilot short cuts this with his prior training ( ground coming up quickly, gawk factor, flair etc) so end up with 2 problems -

 

1) an existing incorrect unconscious response

 

2) a shortening of time ( due to prior experience ) to develop the new unconscious response.

 

phew, down off the box now

 

Having said all that, happy to say.

 

My belief from my research and experience to date is - trike are safe to fly, and my original decision was a good one. This given that they are only flown within their designed flight envelop, and in reasonable weather, with the correct training ( and for Alf - if you stay off the beach :big_grin: though if I did need an emergency landing option and a beach was available, it would be high on my preferred list).

 

Go for it Tomo, I know you will love it.

 

 

[Spin]

Got to weigh in here, I've flown both although not rated on weight shift and never had the slightest inkling of an incorrect control input. I also have quite a few hours on paragliders with yet another control system, also without difficulty. Sailing, I have sailed both tiller and wheel equipped boats, similarly no issues with turning the wrong way, despite a reversed control input. About the only thing that I am concious of is the billy cart steering on a trike, ie push right to go left, otherwise I find it completely intuitive. As someone else pointed out, many of us manage cars, motorcycles, quad bikes etc without coming to grief, despite the very different control systems and handling characteristics.

 

Whilst I am not a high time 3 axis pilot, I played with them for many years before attempting weightshift. A friend who started just before me is a 10,000hr plus airline pilot and coped without difficulty as well. A colleague of his with nearly twice as many hours and everything from a Viscount, 707 and 747 on his licence did battle, however it was related more to managing a low inertia aircraft after so many years on the heavy iron, than a control issue.

 

So long story short, I'm afraid I side with the accident reports and do not believe it is a major factor in trike accidents. Furphy imo.

 

 

[Tomo]

Good conversion training is obviously important but a key factor is for them to recognise & accept that, until they have gained experience, their limits are those of a low hour trike pilot not a high hour 3-axis pilot. If they do so, there is no reason why they can't join the many pilots who fly both types competently.

Whilst I don't disagree with you Ray, and others, but I believe Crezzi has said it all in this quote.

 

Which is pretty much what I think happens anyway, well, from the pilots I've known that have had issues - trike, going 3 axis - only stuff up because they think they know it all... not so. You may have 10,000hrs on either one, but the idea is completely different (in control) than each other, so treat it so.

 

Great discussion though, keep it up.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

.....This given that they are only flown within their designed flight envelop, and in reasonable weather, with the correct training.....Go for it Tomo, I know you will love it.

Ray

 

Your point quoted above is certainly not trike only related and applies equally to anything that gets airborne. Regarding the low inertia aspects, that is a very real difference and it also isnt just trike related.

 

Anything that is low weight, low speed and high drag will be very different to fly than those that arent. The funny thing is that effectively managing the energy in a high drag machine can be just as demanding as the low drag machines...its just that you have more time to do it. It all relates to the point I made about being at full circuit height turning close in final. The fact that a trike can be placed on the piano keys is all to do with the low inertia /high drag combination.

 

I accept that a couple of events that happened close to you can drive you to believe what you do about the dangers of short time conversion, but equally point out that learning to fly radio controlled aircraft doesnt generally require heaps of hours and with those you get to deal with control cross over every lap where roll is reversed as you fly towards yourself and back to normal as you fly away. Low time students can get crossed over when for some reason they go beyond their comfort envelope, but I believe that is true no matter what new thing you are doing. If, however you under recognize the danger then you are likely to find yourself outside your envelope of control and the earth may well smite thee, however that is, as I, and other suggested more an issue of currency / HF than enything else.

 

That all said, the lesson to take away for anyone wanting to do that conversion 3 axis to weight shift is that the conversion can be done and done in a time not inconsistent with other conversions, however once free of the instructor you are in effect a beginner who might have advanced navigation/ awareness and communications skills, but a beginner none the less. Appy exactly the same the lessons should the conversion be in the other direction

 

Andy.

 

P.S If there is one thing Ray and I will 100% agree on its the last sentance in the quote....except down south in the winter

 

 

[farri]

https://www.recreationalflying.com/xf2/uploads/emoticons/002_wave.gif.62d5c7a07e46b2ae47f4cd2e61a0c301.gif[/img]

 

 

[alf jessup]

My belief from my research and experience to date is - trike are safe to fly, and my original decision was a good one. This given that they are only flown within their designed flight envelop, and in reasonable weather, with the correct training ( and for Alf - if you stay off the beach :big_grin: though if I did need an emergency landing option and a beach was available, it would be high on my preferred list). Go for it Tomo, I know you will love it.

Ray,

 

I fly 90 miles along a beach here and have no issues if the fan stops that i am prepared to land on it and take whatever concequences as that would be my only option and a risk I am prepared to take as long as I get out of it in one piece.

 

I just am not prepared to land on it just for the hell of it and the feel good factor.

 

As for high hr 3 axis and low hr trike pilots i tend to agree with you Ray.

 

It only seems to go pear shaped in low level situations where the ground is rushing up to meet you and you panic and revert to many hours of pulling back time, Pull back harder on a trike and the ground comes faster to you.

 

One thing to remember when flying a trike is fly the wing and dont worry what and which way the pod is facing, keep the wheel straight when landing and trike flying becomes easier.

 

I trained in 172's in 86 & 87 and got 25hrs up before we had the recession we had to have and I stopped.

 

Started flying trikes in 2004 and found it very easy and natural and got my licence including x country in 14.6 hrs mainly because i had circut procedures down pat and making my corrections when i was undershooting and overshooting without the instructor having to tell me due to my many hrs training in the circut back in my 3 axis training days.

 

The only bit of advice i would give to anyone starting trike training from flying 3 axis is as i said before, get it into your head right from the start, fly the wing and not the pod and point the wing in the direction you want to go and and the pod will follow AND for gods sake keep the front wheel straight when landing as the trike will always land rear wheels first and pull straight.

 

Other than that its easy peasy and a lot of fun.

 

Cheers

 

Alf