Those things you just forget, or aren't competent with.

[Tomo]

Had a bit of a refresher course/conversation with a forum member today, and it was nice to talk it through, simple as it may sound.

 

It dawned on me though, when you have thoughts of... "I wonder if that's how you are supposed to do it" Be honest with yourself! Have you ever done that?

 

You were taught it in your training, but it's been 12 months or more since, sure that's what BFR's are for... but what about in the in-between time?

 

So lets get the brain active again, and talk about it eh?

 

# How do you do a PFL?

 

# What is your procedure for a Prec Search and landing?

 

- The formula for working out the distance? Was shown a great one today, way easier than what I used to do - 1/2 IAS x Time(in seconds) = Length in meters. I was probably shown it originally, but the memory is a great thing...

 

# Short/soft field take off technique (s) ?

 

# Short field landing technique (s) ?

 

I know it's going to vary a bit in various techniques we all do/were taught, but I think it will be a great way to learn some new things.

 

Obviously the short field stuff is going to vary a lot due aircraft differences, but the other stuff should be pretty stock standard.

 

Instructors: now is your chance to have your say as well!

 

 

[Tomo]

Well, either we're all scared to say, or everyone has forgotten how to do it!

 

So, I'll give it ago.......

 

PFL -

 

Rough running ~ CMF - Carbyheat, Mixture (if applicable) Fuel - tap on, Pump-on, Check contents.

 

Engine failure ~ 1st step - don't forget to Aviate!

 

Get best glide and trim for it, do nothing until you have the best rate settled and trimmed... (best glide in your aircraft) Maybe just a few knots extra for the fudge factor, and the fact that you'll most likely always try and stretch the glide!! (Best glide 65kts in most Jabs - I practice 70kts for engine out)

 

So Aviate has been looked after, now

 

Navigate ~ Choose a Road, Paddock or path of least resistance (the softest looking trees as my instructor says! and don't land in bunya pines, they're too spikey!) into wind if possible, and look at the overshoot/undershoot options.

 

Visualise its "Circuit" try and choose a land feature at the point where you would turn an early base, and get yourself at the point, at 1000ft AGL. (you should have a rough estimate of ground elevation whilst flight planning)

 

The easiest way is to fly downwind, assessing the height, using the wingstrut as a guide for distance out. (Assuming you have wing strut)

 

{How accurate is your height estimation? Give it a go one day and check yourself with the Altimeter. (It's a good fun afternoon flight game!!) }

 

Enroute ~ FCMOST Check: Fuel, CarbHeat, Mixture, Oil, Switches, Throttle (dependent on what you were taught)

 

Mayday call ~ Mayday Mayday Mayday "Aircraft xxxx" 20 miles South east of ### @ Height, partial/full engine/structual etc.. failure, 2 POB (persons on board), conducting forced landing on/in (road/paddock, trees etc...)

 

You don't want to cluter the call up, but giving useful and relevant information will certainly help a lot. ~

 

Assessing your height and distance out as you turn base, try an Aim to touch down 1/3rd of the way into the runway, Use flap and/or a slidslip to bring the touchdown point closer to the fence. Don't use flap until you're sure you need to!

 

On final, Brief the Pax for the touchdown, sharp objects out of pockets, hatches and harnesses secure. (if applicable)

 

Short final, fuel tap OFF, Master off, Mags both off.

 

Don't stretch the glide, conduct a normal flare landing into whatever you are landing on, try and keep it just off the ground for as long as possible, and hopefully the outcome is successful.

 

Hows that?

 

 

[rgmwa]

The easiest way is to fly downwind, assessing the height, using the wingstrut as a guide for distance out. (Assuming you have wing strut) {How accurate is your height estimation? Give it a go one day and check yourself with the Altimeter. (It's a good fun afternoon flight game!!) }

 

 

 

Good post Tomo. Another tip my instructor gave me was:

 

If you keep an angle of about 45 degrees between the horizon and the paddock you're aiming for (ie. vertical arc), you'll always make it in. If the angle gets steeper, move further out. If it gets too shallow move closer in. Seems to work.

 

Oh, another tip - don't lose sight of the paddock. All too easy, speaking from experience!

 

rgmwa

[turboplanner]

Come again on the distance calculation Tomo?????

 

 

[Tomo]

Come again on the distance calculation Tomo?????

You've lost me. i_dunno

 

 

[turboplanner]

- The formula for working out the distance? Was shown a great one today, way easier than what I used to do - 1/2 IAS x Time(in seconds) = Length in meters.

This one

 

100 kts in 1 hr is 100 Nm

 

I got 50 x 3600 = 180,000

[Tomo]

And unless I was 100% sure it was going to be a walk in the park type landing I'd activate my PLB

 

=========

 

What about trying a precautionary search and landing:

 

3 Circuits, 500ft, 200ft, 20ft, climbing back to 1000ft as you go around.

 

Time the first pass to obtain a rough length, to see if you'd make it in safely. (obviously at a set speed to do that!!) 1/2 the speed, multiply it by the time in seconds, will give you a pretty close length in meters.

 

Check, climb out/approach area's while you do it, major obstacles.

 

200ft, thoroughly check area for powerlines fence posts etc...

 

20ft check surface, muddy, rocky, grassy, and getting a general picture of what's what.

 

Depending on the reason for it, you could also do a Pan Pan call with intentions, so others know you're out there.

 

Land.

 

Hows that?

 

 

[turboplanner]

OK, I misunderstood - good formula

 

 

[Tomo]

- The formula for working out the distance? Was shown a great one today, way easier than what I used to do - 1/2 IAS x Time(in seconds) = Length in meters.

This one

 

100 kts in 1 hr is 100 Nm

 

I got 50 x 3600 = 180,000

 

I'm sure you should have enough length there Tubz to put your space shuttle down on.

 

Ok so you travel at 60kts for 1minute = 1.852 Klm, 1852 meters.

 

Use the formula, 30 x 60 = 1800 meters.

 

 

OK, I misunderstood - good formula

No worries, it is a good one hey, I like it!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Maybe just a few knots extra for the fudge factor, and the fact that you'll most likely always try and stretch the glide!! (Best glide 65kts in most Jabs - I practice 70kts for engine out)

I'm sorry Tomo, but I definitely disagree with that. You should aim for the exact best glide speed - 65kts (in this case, appropriate to aircraft of course). It's clearly marked on the ASI, it's not like you need to guess. The best glide speed is clearly 65kts for a reason - so fly at 65kts. You won't get the same glide distance at 'a few knots extra' and in this situation you want every bit of distance you can get.

 

 

[justinm001]

Ive got a question about the emergancy stuff...

 

I was pretty much taught the same emergancy procedures, best glide then CFMS... One thing im not quite 100% sure on is when your supposed to turn the key and try start the engine again ? I would assume after the CFMS checks ?

 

Ive got the Piper POH infront of me and its got the exact same procedures but never makes any referance to trying to restart the engine ?

 

I'll obviously triple check with instructor next time (next lesson is a while away) but was abit concerned as I thought the POH would clear it up for me..

 

 

[justinm001]

aaah ok that explains it, Thanks heaps for your info :)

 

I assumed it was like a car engine and you could restart at any stage (wheels moving etc). Hmm allthough I guess that only works in some cars =)

 

thanks again.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

A piston engine needs three things to run - Fuel, Air and a spark.

 

When the engine stops unexpectantly thats what you need to check.

 

Fuel - Do you have any? Can it get to the engine? is the mixture set?

 

Air - Has something stoped it from getting to the engine? Ice? Hose come off?

 

Spark - Have I turned the ignition off? has a Mag failed?

 

If its not fuel or spark really there isn't much you can do about it so there is no point in trying a restart. So settle in, fly the plane and get ready to be the first person at the scence of the accident!

 

KISS works really well.

 

Adam.

 

 

[Tomo]

Justin, As Adam said...

 

Also, (not sure if you've ever turned your engine off in an aircraft yet to see) but when you do, it will still spin for quite a bit, until you get to a slow enough speed to stop it windmilling. Ok, so if it's still spinning - basically it's already in restart mod. One of the reasons you cycle the throttle and mixture, and check your fuel, and mag's...

 

The only time an engine will stop suddenly (lock up), will most likely indicate a serious internal injury in the engine, and no amount of trying to start will work.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Ok, so if it's still spinning - basically it's already in restart mod. One of the reasons you cycle the throttle and mixture, and check your fuel, and mag's...

Just to clear up any possible confusion, 'restart mode' doesn't mean manual restart, it means if you fix the problem (throttle, mixture, whatever) it should restart itself.

 

Do NOT attempt to manually restart the engine (turn the key) when the prop is still windmilling. Personally I wouldn't bother with a restart at all, I'd just land it, seems too much danger of getting distracted trying to restart it and getting yourself into worse trouble...

 

hatches... secure.

Do you have the hatches closed/locked on landing Tomo?

 

 

[justinm001]

Cool thanks for that Everyone :) The POH mentioned doing the normal checks and then IF the engine restarts blah blah blah. I was curious how the engine would magically start back up, but its starting to make sense now.

 

 

[Tomo]

I'm sorry Tomo, but I definitely disagree with that. You should aim for the exact best glide speed - 65kts (in this case, appropriate to aircraft of course). It's clearly marked on the ASI, it's not like you need to guess. The best glide speed is clearly 65kts for a reason - so fly at 65kts. You won't get the same glide distance at 'a few knots extra' and in this situation you want every bit of distance you can get.

No need to be sorry Darky, that's why I started this thread so we could all glean something from it.

 

You make a very good point, and yes, 65kts is best glide, so 65kts it is. But are you going to maintain a solid 65kts?? Jabiru's still glide just as good at 70 as they do 65, check the VSI next time, and it is just a little buffer, but of course if you can maintain exact 65kts, and no less. I'd deffinetly do it.

 

Something else to consider that is also writen in the Jab POH is that a slightly higher speed may give better distance over the ground if gliding into wind; a slightly slower speed if gliding downwind. Hence 65-70kts

 

Another little trick to electric flaps on Jab, particularly the J230 is you just give it a flick of flap... a really little amount in other words, and it'll increase your glide.

 

Do you have the hatches closed/locked on landing Tomo?

Jabiru aircraft POH states, unlocked but closed, as it has something to do with structual integrity.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

You make a very good point, and yes, 65kts is best glide, so 65kts it is. But are you going to maintain a solid 65kts?? Jabiru's still glide just as good at 70 as they do 65, check the VSI next time, and it is just a little buffer, but of course if you can maintain exact 65kts, and no less. I'd deffinetly do it.

Nope, I still disagree. They chose that speed (65kts) for a reason, I'm not going to go 'oh I'll just add a smidgen'. Best glide is best glide for a reason. That's one thing that's been drilled into me during training, fly the best glide speed.

 

 

[maddogmorgan]

Nope, I still disagree. They chose that speed (65kts) for a reason, I'm not going to go 'oh I'll just add a smidgen'. Best glide is best glide for a reason. That's one thing that's been drilled into me during training, fly the best glide speed.

If you take off at MTOW is best glide still the same as if you had a failure with 1 hour of fuel on-board and had just de-planed a passenger and luggage??? So are you saying 65kts is the best glide speed no matter what weight you are etc etc...or is it just an approximate and an easy number to remember which will probably be near the mark???

 

 

[Tomo]

Just looked up the CAS vs IAS on the J120 I fly.

 

65kts IAS is 62kts CAS, and 70kts IAS is 67kts CAS. Possibly why I don't see any significant difference in descent rate at either speed.

 

Just for interest, the more weight in your aircraft the faster you'll glide vs less weight, in the same aircraft for the same time. Hence ballast in performance gliders.

 

 

[maddogmorgan]

Exactly Tomo...so the mantra 65kts 65kts 65kts is basically useless. Darky said it's the best glide for a reason...Well that is BS. Best glide will vary in different configurations and weights. I suggest that it's a 'Ballpark' figure at best and easy to remember when in the poo!

 

 

[Tomo]

Exactly Tomo...so the mantra 65kts 65kts 65kts is basically useless. Darky said it's the best glide for a reason...Well that is BS. Best glide will vary in different configurations and weights. I suggest that it's a 'Ballpark' figure at best and easy to remember when in the poo!

I disagree there maddagmorgan.

 

65kts is the published best glide for Jabiru (most of their models I believe). Best angle of climb is 68kts in the J120.

 

Sticking to it is the best bet of the day. Adding a few kts for a buffer zone, may or may not increase your descent rate. Another reason to understand and fully work with your aircraft.

 

Different aircraft weights DO make a lot of difference in how it performs, but when the factory alocates a speed best 'overall' it really means that.

 

Making the glide between 65-70kts is personal choice. I have checked it and there is no significant difference between them ON the particular aircraft I fly.

 

Not sure if you have, but if you ever get the chance to fly a low performace, high drag aircraft you'll understand exactly what all this is about.

 

 

[maddogmorgan]

Tell Bob Hoover that

 

 

[maddogmorgan]

Nope have a look at his lecture and comments on best glide published figures...The POH best glide is published for an aircraft at Maximum weight only, best glide will vary. So like I said published best glide is something to hang onto when it all hits the fan, the idea that best glide is absolute in all configurations and weights is plainly wrong.

 

 

[facthunter]

F/L's

 

Just to pick up a few points.

 

If the engine is still turning and hasn't made any horrible mechanical noises, (and you have a bit of time) a restart is OK. This may only be closing the throttle to idle or just above and turning on a fuel pump and/or changing tanks. It is not wise to restart an engine on full throttle.

 

There are some circumstances where an engine will run on one magneto but not on 2. ( the timing gear to the distibutor has stripped in one mag).

 

It may also be carb icing so if this is a possibility all the above plus carb heat FULL. fairly quickly applied.

 

If the engine restarts but runs badly don't rely on it to get you anywhere. Stay with the closest suitable paddock, Don't try to make the aerodrome.

 

Head winds justify a faster glide speed. Plot out sink rates and Groundspeeds (on the ground on paper) to prove this for yourself. Conversely a tailwind can justify a reduced glide speed.

 

Till you are sure of reaching the field, plan to land well down the field and apply sideslip or flap WHEN SURE of getting in.

 

Remember it is better to hit the FAR fence at a slow speed than the NEAR one at flying speed.

 

A good landing is always nice but if the field is short get it down and the brakes on.

 

Just picked up the last few posts. Be nice to each other fella's.

 

Best glide speed is config AND weight related. In the early stages of Flight training it is OK to think of it as ONE speed but it DOES vary with weight. (as does stall speed). You should come over the fence FASTER when you are heavy and you get a higher best glide speed when you are heavy also, because (as was stated) IT is a L/D related figure.

 

TOMO.. The glider will not go Further , It will go as far, but FASTER because it is the best L/D for the new weight. Nev