Why Australia should be teaching the world to fly

[Tomo]

A Friend put me onto this, a very good, but sad revelation on something that is true.

 

Why Australia should be teaching the world to fly

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

That a pretty long way of summing up the obvious.

 

Carol Carpenter from California Power Systems who was the person the FAA appointed to handle the LSA changeover for ultralights and training for LSA repairman some us up in two simple words: "back water". Now can anyone not understand why i rant and rave and dummy spit at times.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[eightyknots]

A very interesting article. I think John King really hated the Alice Springs situation. Alice Springs traffic movements per month equals Los Angeles in less than two days.

 

 

[farri]

Why Australia should be teaching the world to fly[/url]

Cause we got Tomo,Onya Tomo.

 

Frank.

 

 

[P4D]

What an indicment of our regulators! Johns ideas are way too pratical and don't involve enough red tape or paperwork to justify an employees position or an important job title so it won't happen here.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Article not quite right tomo, over ten years out of date for a start...we don't have class B airspace and airspace reform has been a work in progress for many years...I have been flying through restricted, class C and D with minimal flight notifications for years and with the exception of Williamtown controllers found everyone accomodating and friendly with clearances readily forthcoming and I've certainly not felt as if I was intruding as Mr King mentions in his experience. FBOs...if we are talking about refuellers, have to agree with him there unfortunately some of those guys need an attitude adjustment with a piece of 4 X 2. As far as teaching the rest of the world to fly...thats what the sausage factories concentrate on, if you go to any of the major flying schools in the major cities, the game is to "pick the aussie"...

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Dunlopdangler,

 

Do you have any experience of just how easy and pleasant any flying can be is US, including VFR --- which is not discriminated against ---- "clearance not available, remain clear of controlled airspace" is something you will NEVER hear in US.

 

Don't kid yourself that the sentiments are out of date, and the airspace descriptions are what the Kings found in practice, not the names Australia gives to airspace. Australia is an unfriendly place for visitors to fly.

 

The training industry in Australia is, sadly, in decline.

 

A combination of Commonwealth and State bureaucracy, not limited to CASA, has made it all too hard.

 

The costs associated with said bureaucracy have largely made Australia uncompetitive.

 

An example is the China Southern Western Australian Flying College. About 10 years ago, with the plan for a $US350M initial, final total $US750M expansion of an already very impressive operation, things looked rosy. I won't go into detail here, but suffice to say that the Commonwealth impediments put in their way resulted in China Southern deciding Canada would be a far more friendly place, and all the investment expansion of CSA primary training has been made at Moncton.

 

CSWAFC has been in decline ever since, and China Southern have now effectively pulled out of Australia altogether, an ignominious end to a pioneering efforts by Captain Yu Yan En (then DFO of China Southern) and Barney Fernandes almost 20 years ago.

 

Sadly, Australia is an aviation backwater.

 

Regards,

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Bill,

 

Certainly don't kid myself about anything...I have my opinion and reacted to the article that Tomo posted accordingly. I am very aware of all the rules and regulations that bureaucracy can throw at a flying school offering training to overseas students. I am also very aware of Barney Fernandas chinese flying school when he first started out at Jandakot and used to be amused watching his chinese students riding around on pushbikes on a painted circuit practising their radio calls in english as it wasn't their first language. I am also aware of the CSWAFC business model and whilst dissapointing that it was lost, to be fair, Canada's airspace restraints are similar to ours and if Moncton was a more economical proposition to that was offered here then unfortunately for us that was a decision made by China Southern..

 

 

[skybum]

A bit of background info http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rrat_ctte/casa/submissions/sub12.pdf

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

The massive expansion planned for CSWAFC was CANCELLED because of bureaucratic impediments ---- to make is plainer, the sovereign risk was judged too great, in dealing with then CASA ---- based on the company experience.

 

The sovereign risk was not an issue in Canada, and has not been in the years since the decision.

 

It had nothing to do with airspace restrictions or costs ---- costs were actually marginally cheaper in AU, and WA was on the same time zone as CS HQ. The WA Government (from the WA Dept. of Transport ) is the only state government that has a coherent and consistent policy to encourage aviation business in WA, it has been completely undermined from Canberra.

 

Since Kevin-O-Lemon's Mining Super Profits Tax, sovereign risk is now a well understood term.

 

Regards,

 

PS: Skybum,

 

Well done, backs up everything I have said. I had forgotten about that Senate submission ---- which was ignored in favor of a 77 page submission by a former head of legal counsel in CASA --- which is worth a read to understand a little more about the CASA culture of the day, that had such a devastating effect on planned investment in WA flying training.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Bill, YES.. I can read and I have an opinion...I find your responses to most posts generally insulting and I also noticed that you edited your answer, unfortunately I did receive the original (hence my response). I agree with you that Australia has a lot of work to do and we do have a lot of our shortfalls because of bureaucratic impediments that are not only CASA, but certainly better environments than a lot of other countries. Your example with China Southern has of course other factors not only bureaucratic that I am not going into here or in any forum..I was merely putting my thoughts to Tomos earlier post based on MY experience.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Bill, YES.. I can read and I have an opinion...I find your responses to most posts generally insulting and I also noticed that you edited your answer, unfortunately I did receive the original (hence my response). I agree with you that Australia has a lot of work to do and we do have a lot of our shortfalls because of bureaucratic impediments that are not only CASA, but certainly better environments than a lot of other countries. Your example with China Southern has of course other factors not only bureaucratic that I am not going into here or in any forum..I was merely putting my thoughts to Tomos earlier post based on MY experience.

Just curious, how long have you been involved in aviation?

 

Ozzie

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Since the early seventies Ozzie...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

OMG.. Here we go again.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Nah. i was just curious. helps to catagorise.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

For anyone who thinks everything is just hunkydory with the NAS:

 

C0186/10 REVIEW C0159/10AMD ERSA DATED 03 JUNE 2010 FLIGHT PROCEDURES

ADD:

 

VFR HJ DO NOT PLAN TO TRANSIT OR OVER-FLY THE AD CTR BLW A060 WHERE

 

AN ALTN RTE IS AVBL. WHERE AN ALTN RTE

 

IS NOT AVBL, PLAN

 

- COT FM D213 TO PNL

 

- COT PNL TO D213

 

- HOPE VALLEY VFR RTE

 

VFR HJ DEP FM YPAD TO YPPF, PLAN VIA PAL

 

FROM 06 272240 TO PERM

I have spoken (direct and through AOPA) to AsA and they say it's not as strict as the NOTAM makes it sound.

 

The fact of the matter is that 1 out of 3 times I have been denied clearance for the coastal route for what didn't seem like any good reason. The most hilarious/pathetic one was when the F-111s were doing a demo over victoria park for the Clipsal 500. How the hell is that going to conflict with a SportStar going 500ft off-shore?

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

----but certainly better environments than a lot of other countries.

OK, Dunlopdangler, I'll bite, which one that has an established export pilot training industry of any significance.Right now, by my count, NZ has more overseas student at Ardmore and surrounding satellites, than the (diminishing) total in AU.

 

There was only one reason China Southern decided to give Australia away, and go to Canada, sovereign risk, nothing else,trying to do aviation training in Australia became too hard, and as it was all internal training, it had nothing to do with student visas. This from both Australian and Chinese directors of the company, it is an informed statement, not an opinion.

 

You would hardly call the Moncton weather "ideal" year round, but despite such potential for weather disruption of training schedules, away they went.

 

Regards,

 

 

[skybum]

The origin of the thread is the premise that aviation is killed by airspace as it was...The truth is and has always been...doing aviation business in Australia is at the whim of the CASA.

 

I have my theory as to what happened back in the late eighties and early nineties within the regulator. The wrong people took VRs.

 

"Your papers are in order!" sounds like from another time, doesn't it?

 

It's got nothing what-so-ever to do with airspace!