Drug & Alcohol Testing Focus Group - Brisbane

[FlyingVizsla]

Hi Folks,

 

I participated in a survey on CASA's drug & alcohol testing last month and I have now been nominated to attend a focus group in Brisbane 26th Aug run by Monash Uni. Is anyone else going?

 

I live in the sticks so it is a stretch for me to get there (well a $457 + $163 flight), but if there is no one else to represent our views I'll make the effort.

 

So - what do we think about the drug & alcohol testing?

 

Has it made aviation safer?

 

What is the biggest threat - alcohol, prescription drugs, illicit drugs, neither?

 

Is the legislation too broad, about right, not far enough?

 

Is testing effective, an abuse of power, aimed at the wrong sector etc?

 

Has this testing made any difference to your behaviour?

 

I value your input - for either myself or someone else to take to this group.

 

Sue

 

 

[facthunter]

Need for Input.

 

We should all contribute to this.

 

The problem is potentially there and there should be legislation and penalties for infringement. How significant the issue is in the field, I have serious doubts and the way the testing has been reported to have been carried out would present a serious infringement of individual civil rights.. At the very least there should be a complaints structure set up and the procedures monitored by somebody independent to ensure there is no abuse or improper process applied. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

I too have been invited to attend... not from an Ra-Aus perspective but due to my work.

 

For me the cost would only be about $60 using staff travel... Not sure if I am going to attend yet.

 

 

[winsor68]

And perhaps a little like a broken pencil... pointless.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Should be more testing! i think the quality and quanity has been slipping of late.

 

Seriously i belive that the idea behind it is sound. just how the testers have been approaching their job leaves a bad after taste. The testers should have the right apptitude, be correctly trained in 'people skills' and be held accountable for stepping outside the guidlines to avoid instances like those mentioned by forum members.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[Tomo]

Should be more testing! i think the quality and quanity has been slipping of late.Seriously i belive that the idea behind it is sound. just how the testers have been approaching their job leaves a bad after taste. The testers should have the right apptitude, be correctly trained in 'people skills' and be held accountable for stepping outside the guidlines to avoid instances like those mentioned by forum members.

Ozzie

You got it I reckon :thumb_up:

 

 

[winsor68]

I agree testing is a good thing... but I have grave concerns about the way it has been applied in my particular area.

 

The testing has only been applied as a punishment at my workplace... and only once. It has been applied as a means to root out the "druggies" but being affected by alcohol early in the morning is still seen as ok. I mean why would you test your staff at 10 am when the "drunks" have sobered up when it is known that this is the problem?

 

One gentlemen who used to work for my company but left when they bought in D&A testing returned some months later with another airline job with a different company... I met him in the terminal when I arrived for work one morning... He said "I just got drug tested"... I asked how he went...He said "I passed and I had bongs last night!" So obviously the testing is not effective.

 

Meanwhile CASA and the airlines does not seem to care that its contract workers are spending 15 hours plus at work per day, 80 hours plus per week.. walking around like zombies with no rules regarding hours worked. I regularly work consecutive 15 hours days (and because of the 'casual' nature of so much of this work don't get paid for them all)... Some days I am lucky to make the first corner driving home.

 

My new mobile phone alarm tells me how long it is until it goes off in the morning to get up... I have not seen it tell me I have more than 4.5 hours to sleep per night in god knows how long.

 

99% of airlines use contract staff for their ground services, and the Contract companies seem to be only interested in their profits at the expense of safety.

 

So... bring on the drug testing, make it effective because at the moment it certainly is not as applied by contract ports, BUT, don't think for one minute that it means anything when other very serious safety issues are ignored.

 

The only option as I see it is to get out of the industry...

 

 

[DAVID SEE]

I'll second Ozzie's input for you Tomo.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Fatigue is an area that would cause more problems than drugs or booze mainly because it affects more people than D&A. I do not push myself to work long hours anymore. I made a mistake because of it and almost killed myself. scared the #### out of me. Another is what i call 'burn out'. To much of one thing over a long period of time with no breaks for relaxation. And i don't mean one or two days off every couple of weeks. You need some decent time off every three months if you have a high pressure job. And not just blast off on some adventure. quiet time putter around the garden, lay on a beach ect.

 

 

[winsor68]

hey win!....if it's like u say...then "bring on the testing"..I must live in another world where pilots value their licence so much that they would do nothing to compromise it....

Cfi,

 

The problem is with ground ops... I am not saying Aircrew don't have their own issues.

 

It makes a joke of safety in the air when there are 10 people on the ground responsible for the safety of the aircraft before the Aircrew take over who have no safety net.

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

I too am in favor of testing. Like others have stated it is vital that testing officers don't have an attitude but should be polite with NO stand-over attitudes.

 

The other thing is the issue with a drink "airside" at the end of the day. Since no-one will go flying anymore I do not see an issue with this.

 

This is something to be addressed IMO.

 

fly safe

 

Walter

 

 

[old man emu]

As a retired Constable with thirty years' service, and my organisation's DAMP Supervisor, I believe I have the qualifications to make a comment on this topic.

 

From my experience of CASA D&A testing, I formed the opinion that the process has been instigated without due reference to Common Law and practicality.

 

As a quick comment: Police Roadside Breath Tests are a screening measure. They normally only detain motorists for one minute. If the test is negative, it's "On your way, Driver" No record is made of the driver, except for the registration number of the car (that's a supervisory tool to make sure the police aren't fudging their work)

 

The same test by CASA takes half an hour and detailed records are made.

 

I can't say all I want to at this time due to work pressures. I intend to write what I think should be submitted and post it later.

 

OME

 

 

[winsor68]

As a retired Constable with thirty years' service, and my organisation's DAMP Supervisor, I believe I have the qualifications to make a comment on this topic.From my experience of CASA D&A testing, I formed the opinion that the process has been instigated without due reference to Common Law and practicality.

 

As a quick comment: Police Roadside Breath Tests are a screening measure. They normally only detain motorists for one minute. If the test is negative, it's "On your way, Driver" No record is made of the driver, except for the registration number of the car (that's a supervisory tool to make sure the police aren't fudging their work)

 

The same test by CASA takes half an hour and detailed records are made.

 

I can't say all I want to at this time due to work pressures. I intend to write what I think should be submitted and post it later.

 

OME

I would be very interested in what you have to say about testing from an industry perspective Old Man Emu... It is my opinion that there are serious problems with the way testing has been implemented at the industry level... and serious breaches of civil liberties are being committed.

 

 

[rescue]

A few thoughts

 

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ATSB investigation of Hamilton Island Incident led to finding that Fatigue, Illicit drugs and Alcohol contributed to the accident. Recommended CASA implement programs to address these problems in the industry. Visible outcome was Human Factors and Drug and Alcohol Testing

 

Most focus as an industry wide approach has been on Drug and Alcohol

 

Human Factors is apparently limited to flight crew

 

<o:p></o:p>

 

• As indicated in the forum the application of testing is seen as beneficial and necessary component of the regulatory mechanism.
   
   
  
• The use of contractors to perform testing has led to some issues with ‘attitude’ of the testers and this needs to be monitored and problems rectified. An incident register/tool could be developed by CASA to facilitate reporting and follow up on these problems.
   
   
  
• From comments it would appear that RA-Aus//GA Pilots and Students do not resent or object to the testing for Drugs and Alcohol. They accept this as the required self discipline to enhance their skills and abilities.
   
   
  

 

<o:p></o:p>

 

In my humble opinion the legislation is about right the only issue I see is that there appears to be a requirement to increase the education and visibility of these topics.

 

Indeed there would appear to be a greater need to provide the necessary guidance to enhance self discipline rather than to widen or increase testing activities.

 

<o:p></o:p>

 

Unfortunately substance abuse is on the increase in our society and we can expect this to be reflected in the aviation environment. A focus on developing the correct culture with a firm but ‘complimentary’ testing regime would appear to provide the greatest benefit.

 

<o:p></o:p>

 

Lets make it so that people are proud to be compliant and present a positive attitude to their peers.

 

<o:p></o:p>

 

Sorry for all the words…

 

 

[facthunter]

human factors application.

 

Have to correct you there. Human factors is not limited to flight crew. I am aware of a maintenance section being involved and I would not presume that to be an isolated case. Human factors are not any more a factor applicable to flight crew training than any other section of aviation related activity such as fuelling, load control and maintenance, to name a few. Nev

 

 

[rescue]

Happy to stand corrected - Thanks Nev..

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I don't in anyway condone combining aviation with inebriation. I do however wonder if the AOD programme is somewhat of a solution in search of a problem.

 

I'm happy to be corrected but I'm not aware of any Australian GA accidents where AOD was determined to be a significant factor. The ATSB report identified a number of factors which significantly contributed to the Hamilton Island but none of these were related to AOD (which they didn't discount as a contributory factor though).

 

In recent years there have been a couple of overseas (NZ & UK) accidents definitely attributable to AOD but, from reading the reports, its not convincing that either of these would have been prevented by a testing regime no matter how rigorous.

 

Aviation shouldn't be immune from testing but could the (presumably significant) cost of the existing programme not have been better spent in other ways to produce a real safety improvement ? How many true positives have been caught since testing started ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

Value?

 

There are plenty of other "real" factors out there to consider. Ie Fatigue, CO carbon monoxide poisoning. Food poisoning (things like chicken, sushi) dehydration, low blood sugar etc. From memory, the Hamilton Island thing was inconclusive as Crezzi states. Unfortunately "the Powers" must be seen to be doing something, and We ALL become saddled with something which appears to be of considerable concern to most of the "user" sections of Aviation. I'm not happy with it as presently enforced/practiced. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

So - what do we think about the drug & alcohol testing?

Has it made aviation safer?

 

What is the biggest threat - alcohol, prescription drugs, illicit drugs, neither?

 

Is the legislation too broad, about right, not far enough?

 

Is testing effective, an abuse of power, aimed at the wrong sector etc?

 

Has this testing made any difference to your behaviour?

 

I value your input - for either myself or someone else to take to this group.

 

Sue

It appears from comments posted here that we accept the concept of Drug & Alcohol testing in aviation in the same way we accept it as a Road Safety practice, and indeed as a safety practice in all forms of transportation and in many industries.

 

What we need to do is to set out answers to the questions Sue posed in her original post so that our opinions can be taken to the focus group. I would imagine that there will be similar meetings in other Capitals.

 

So I would ask that we take it as read that AOD testing is OK, but that there are problems with the manner in which it is carried out, and in the application of penalties arising from test results.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

.So I would ask that we take it as read that AOD testing is OK, but that there are problems with the manner in which it is carried out, and in the application of penalties arising from test results.

 

Old Man Emu

Pretty much + maybe cost effectiveness, free holiday at my expense indeed!