Radio Aids

[sseeker]

Spent the past 1.5 weeks at school learning about the the ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) and VOR (Very High Frequency Omni-Directional Range) on flight sim. I'd never really thought much about them, I really considered them a useless instrument but after seeing what you can do with them I'm amazed. I've never seen any ultralights with these instruments, are they too expensive? I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[motzartmerv]

useless instruments??..lol.

 

I think they are quite $$$, but as you said very beneficial.

 

There's a fully IFR rated J230 at camden. Gets some funny looks when he calls "jabiru taxiing IFR for canberra"

 

 

[sseeker]

For a pilot that's never used one or been taught how to use one they are pretty useless But now, oh so useful! If only the Jabiru I rented had an ADF/VOR.

 

I take it the 230 is GA registered?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[storchy neil]

icom hand held that i use as second radio when flying has vor in it very handy wel worth the the time to learn it neil

 

 

[sseeker]

Neil,

 

Mind sharing what brand the hand held is? I wouldn't mind having a look at them

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew

 

 

[facthunter]

ADF and VOR.

 

They are line of sight in respect of range. The higher you are the further from the transmitter you can use them.

 

The VOR is the most steady. The presentation is the most useable as you can dial a radial in and fly the course bar TO and FROM the ground station.

 

Most of the ground support facilities are going to be removed and everything will be GNSS based. The ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) points to thunderstorms and is affected by coastal refraction near sunrise and sunset. You can use the transmitters of the older radio stations if you know their location, for a reference for the ADF. (ADF these days means Australian Defence Forces.)

 

Really these instruments are approaching obsolescence, but the VOR ( VHF Omni Range ) is a more modern presentation that has more relevence to present day or future instrument ops. The ADF needs to be used in conjunction with a compass to fly a course and is MUCH more difficult to learn. If you want a challenge give it a go, but do it in a simulator first. You have to have wind on and some X-wind available to practice it. Nev

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

The instruments are useless; the procedures that require them are not.

 

There is nothing an ADF or VOR can do that you can't do with a GPS. Many aviation GPSs have a "virtual VOR" mode, which is much more accurate and reliable than a real VOR/DME if you want to fly a VOR approach.

 

ADF and VOR are analog instruments and if a fly takes a dump on the wrong capacitor you are following the wrong radial. That makes them very expensive. A single CDI will cost you two grand, and that doesn't include the NAV radio required to drive it and you want at least two of each, compare that to a much more accurate and functional GPS. (Although an IFR certified GPS is stupidly expensive also.)

 

A friend was lost in low-ish cloud and rain over the Adelaide Hills with no GPS. (Not one she knew how to operate anyway) She tried to use the Parafield NDB, but it was telling her porkies because she was too low and she couldn't climb because she is not instrument rated. Very useful instrument! Ended up asking approach for a vector...

 

Airservices has just started another program of checking and maintaining a whole bunch of regional NDBs which in my opinion is just a complete wast of money. Spend it on developing GPS approaches and arrivals instead and decomission the ancient relics.

 

VOR is still much more useful for approaches as it is much more accurate, but why we still have en-route VORs puzzles me; waste of money.

 

ILS is great as it is the only precission approach we have in Australia.

 

To get into the 21st century, Airservices should have launched WAAS packages on the last two Optus birds to go into orbit, that way we could have had GPS-only precission approaches to ILS minimums. Hopefully we will get that once Gallileo becomes operational. (WAAS in the US also runs on pay-TV sats.)

 

Using VOR and ADF is fun and useful, but useful only because the published procedures simply haven't been updated to more modern technology.

 

That's my 2 cents on the subject. :)

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Facthunter,

 

Thanks for your input, yes we setup wind and practice homing the beacon & intercepting the radial for ADF and intercepting the radial for VOR, we just started ILS today :big_grin:

 

Basscheffers,

 

As far as I'm aware with the Day VFR law it says you have to fix your position to the ground every 30 minutes, this applies to fixing it to a map or getting a fix from the VOR coupled with the DME. You could probably get a fix from the ADF as well by tuning one station and getting your bearing from it and then tuning another station and getting your bearing from that then you can cross the two lines and you'll get a rough fix. Obviously you'd have to put in some consideration for speed as well. I don't think you can legally fix your location using a GPS.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Thx1137]

To get a legal fix I believe the GPS would have to be certified for primary navigation. Not cheap!

 

 

[sseeker]

Yes but whether or not you can use a GPS for day primary navigation is another thing. I'm not too sure about that one.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[frank marriott]

The short answer for useing Nav Aids for a fix means the each instrument must be certified/calibrated AND the pilot must be "qualified" to use each one. [The excetion being the DME - if you are rated on an ADF and/or VOR the DME can be used for distance but not for a DME homing]

 

Just having them in an aircraft does not allow you to use them as a "primary" form of navigation - but in reality we are now talking IFR.

 

Frank

 

 

[Turnerj]

Spend it on developing GPS approaches and arrivals instead and decomission the ancient relics.

They are, and they are precision approaches:

 

Airservices Australia - Environment - The Brisbane Green Project

 

This is what my school has been doing in Aerospace studies.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Guest 50ft AGL]

The short answer for useing Nav Aids for a fix means the each instrument must be certified/calibrated AND the pilot must be "qualified" to use each one. [The excetion being the DME - if you are rated on an ADF and/or VOR the DME can be used for distance but not for a DME homing]Just having them in an aircraft does not allow you to use them as a "primary" form of navigation - but in reality we are now talking IFR.

 

Frank

In addition you must be within the declared 'rated coverage' for the aids you are using to obtain a fix and if you are using two NDBs (ADF) they must be with 30 miles of where the position lines intersect. Looks like I did take in stuff while studying CPL Air Law