Air crash investigations Berganair Crash 757 ASI prob

[Guest ozzie]

Ist thing on the engine fire drill for the twin otter is 'mute the fire bell' last thing on the list is 'rearm firebell' noisy freaking thing. flashing lights are pretty tho.

 

 

[dazza 38]

When i was a Aircraft Technician on F111's, we would spend a fair amount on time in the cockpit, a couple of shifts if doing flight control rigging as a example.The master Caution Light would light up alot.Reasons being hook up to a Hydraulic Cart, or ground power or what ever.Especially with hydraulics, shutting the primary or utlity system down to test.This is for the Classic F111,s. Anyway, we would press the Master Caution, button, when it flashed, straight away, because the Alarm ringing through my head set, and the other guys head sets, Very loud.It became annoying,press the button.Alarm and light stops flashing, look down at the caution panel, and see what ever system,is illuminated, what the problem is.I just threw this out here, to explain as if we werent in a hangar, but flying, and the alarms go beserk.It takes time to identify what system or systems are failing, and are they important, to the job at hand.eg- I generator failure on one engine, is not going to kill you, if multi engined.Even one hydraulic system failure, when they are multiple system.My 2 cents worth.Cheers

 

 

[Tomo]

As far as cancelling alarms go (from a prev post). Fire alarms can be cancelled as they are loud and obnoxious, however other flight related alarms may not be designed to be readily cancelled for a reason. ............................................Maj...

Was a tongue in cheek comment

 

I still think Ultralight/Glider pilots that go commercial have more going for them. Which is a great credit to our organization I reckon. :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest disperse]

FOUND YOUTUBE OF FLIGHT: NOW YOU CAN JUDGE FOR YOUSELF.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thBZSdjUkO0"

 

 

[farri]

I still think Ultralight/Glider pilots that go commercial have more going for them. :thumb_up:

:gerg:I`m buggered if I know,Tomo,:hittinghead: ,with Ultralights and Gliders, The pilot flies the aircraft.

 

With commercial RPT, The aircraft flies the pilot. :stirring pot:

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Aircraft flys the pilot.

 

Can happen but shouldn't. This is an ongoing argument as to how much authority you give the pilot compared to trusting the automatics. Statistically, pilots do crash perfectly good aeroplanes, but GOOD pilots have managed to keep aeroplanes flying when it should not have been possible, by thinking outside the square. Airline management does not want pilots to do anything out of the ordinary and adherence to SOP's is essential, as far as they are concerned. ( You can see their point as they sell tickets to get you from A to B in the least dramatic way, and they don't want to employ a skilled Cowboy who wants to push the plane to it's limit to prove to himself how good he is. ) Unfortunately the POH does not predict EVERYTHING that can go wrong and the Automatics cannot either. In fact the automatics get it wrong mainly through sensor error or system logic deficiencies, and sometimes the pilot can not work out just what the plane is doing. While both Airbus systems and Boeing are manufactured by Honeywell, most people consider that the Boeing version is more pilot friendly. Being somewhat cynical af latter years, I have been known to ask some of my students of they want to fly Aeroplanes or join Airlines. Perhaps some of them understand what I mean. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Further to being able to cancell certain situation-citical alarms. There is a history leading to some crashes where relevent alarms have been cancelled, which led then to the aircrew ingnoring important stuff, and the aircraft crashed.

 

One classic example was the on-ground incident at Airbus where during full power run-ups several alarms were inopropiatly cancelled (by pulling circut breakers), and the aircraft then computed that it was airborne ( your not supposed to go full power on the ground). The aircraft thinking it was now flying, released the main brakes at full power and the aircraft surged foward and impacted a concrete blast wall, writing off the brand-new zero time Airbus 340. We all know computers are smarter that pilots don't we ??...which reminds me of a joke....Q. What is the difference between God and a pilot ? A: God doesn't think he is a pilot.............................Maj...

 

 

[dazza 38]

I just watched the You tube Video. Never seen it before.I dont get it. The Captain identified that HIS ASI wasnt reading correctly during the T/O. They rotated on the Co-pilots ASI. The narrator come on and says "the captains ASI starts to work?"Next thing, they switch on the A/P. Then things start to go down hill.Then the captain says "something is wrong".No **** something is wrong. The co-pilot say his ASI is/was working that is what they used, at rotate airspeed. I have never flown a airliner, and i have never been a test Pilot, but i do remember reading some great advice, somewhere from a test pilot years ago."If you switch something on, or do something eg-lower flaps, or turn on a A/P. If things go pear shaped realy quick, REVERSE what you have just done".Sound like good advice to me.Cheers

 

 

[farri]

After having looked at all the facts,finaly,could it simply be that humans are human and

 

do make mistakes, more so when under pressure.

 

There`s an old saying that goes, " If anything can go wrong then it will ".

 

Can we ever get to a point where there is no possibility of anything going wrong,humans never making mistakes and machines that never fail,who knows?.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Tomo]

humans never making mistakes and machines that never fail,who knows?.

I thought I was wrong once, but It was just a mistake.

 

Yeah, we shouldn't really judge I guess, but rather - learn from it for ourselves.

 

 

[farri]

Yeah, we shouldn't really judge I guess, but rather - learn from it for ourselves.

Goodonya Tomo,That`s what it`s all about,education,learning and passing the knowledge on, then improving on it.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, Don`t gues,be positive .

 

 

[Guest disperse]

I'm going to finish with this. When we step onto any commercial flight. you have this sense, that if anything go's wrong. We have a extremely well trained and qualified pilot sitting up front. Whom has the ability to do everything humanly possible to get us safely back to earth..... And ultimately if said pilot has a well educated 50/50 choice to make. with very little chance of knowing which choice was correct. Then should I be on that plane and he makes the wrong choice....... I wouldn't hold it against him. If he makes a poor decision ending in disaster. I would accept that we are only human.

 

BUT: If the pilot can only operate the plane and make it fly, and it crash's. I'M GOING TO BE ****ED !!!

 

So based on the information contained in the episode, and assuming it to be near correct. The moment that plane could no longer fly it's self, They were all doomed.

 

Too much time behind the autopilot and not enough FLYING TIME.

 

Very poor Airmanship. And that's not fair to the 180 people that stepped onto the plane. (now what about the pilot that side slipped a 767 to safety. Something he learned from his glider days. Now there's a pilot !!!)

 

 

[farri]

Too much time behind the autopilot and not enough FLYING TIME. (now what about the pilot that side slipped a 767 to safety. Something he learned from his glider days. Now there's a pilot !!!)

Three Cheers,well said in my opinion.:thumb_up:

 

A GA pilot once said to me,Quote," Never side slip an Ultralight,you`ll rip the tail off ".

 

I taught all my students to side slip and quite aggressively at that,never ripped the tail off and I still havn`t been able to rip it off.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Thx1137]

I read that some airlines do not want the pilots to have flying time some are quite adamant that the pilots use autopilot at all times where it is allowed.

 

Couple that with airlines schools apparently starting to produce certified copilots that have never flown outside a simulator and the push by one airline to have a flight attendant as an emergency copilot. I dunno if I want to fly commercial anymore!

 

I wonder how many airline pilots just pop out for some basic VFR fun?

 

 

[poteroo]

This thread seems to be heading towards the other arguement about pilot training becoming more procedural, and less skill oriented. It's probably a good idea to expose your students to a ' no ASI ' configuration once they have done basic stuff. It can be taken further to ' no FLT INSTS at all ' and then to ' no TACHO ' as well. Power x attitude becomes rather important then.

 

There's certainly merit in IFR/autopilot pilots getting in some physical VFR handling from time to time, and I know many that do, incl aeros. But companies 'own' their employees' flight time - and many have rules about no flying outside of company aircraft.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Sad thing is these 'bus drivers' when they retire usually end up with a job telling those who manhandle their aircraft how it should be done. What they lack in practical skills they make up for with bully boy arrogance

 

 

[farri]

I'm going to finish with this.QUOTE]Sorry disperse,it looks like it`s not gouing to be that easy

 

These modern airliners are very big,sophisticated and mostly, if not totaly, flown by computers and they are becoming more so as time goes on.

 

These AC are completely and worlds appart from the recreational AC that we fly,in general,can we realy understand what is required of the crew, helping to fly them.

 

I realy don`t think so,let`s give them some credit for what must be a very boring and stressfull job,I know I couldn`t do it.

 

Frank.

[Gibbo]

There was an interesting discussion at a Tooradin talk fest a while ago.. One of the speakers was an ex-management pilot of a large commerical airline that is no longer in existance. He still works in the industry as a consultant.

 

Basically 'Big Red' won't hire ex airbus pilots due to the computerisation. Big red believes that most of the airbus pilots are out of touch with physically flying the aircraft. Very interesting talk... Airbus time goes against you.

 

A few interesting comments have popped up on the 'other... more professional website' about how pilots here in australia don't have the IFR approach skills. Hmmm clear weather and no VFR skills guys. What happens when the dash packs it in....

 

 

[facthunter]

Opinions.

 

It's OK to have an opinion but... Honestly you don't know what is in the job till you do it yourself. I have quite a few friends who train pilots all over the world and here, in simulators. I get to discuss these matters with them , frequently. We used to think our standard was, if not the best, then very close to it and there were good reasons for that. We had a healthy GA industry and the Airlines spent a lot of money on recurrent training and many endorsements.

 

Today the pilots are supposed to get the endorsements themselves and sometimes have a bit of trouble even getting a Tax deduction for them.

 

There used to be some pretty variable standards around the globe, but the "Planemakers" in some cases required extra training by some airlines before they would sell them the planes. Today they are closer in standard than in the past, but with cost pressures due to fierce competition, there are times when corners are cut and airlines have fuel, rostering and Maintenance practices/ policies that put pressure on safety.

 

Sometimes the relationship between management and the pilots is not good. Management today is commerce trained and not sourced from pilot ranks. Senior management would rarely if ever visit the maintenance facilities of most airlines and pilot training and maintenance costs are resented more than understood. There can be a lot of pressure exerted to get the plane back on the line and sometimes that means unserviceabilities are carried for extended periods. In theory these are carried at the PIC's discretion but if you don't carry them you get a DCM. (Don't Come Monday). Not always an easy job. Nev

 

 

[Guest disperse]

Okay so they fly with 1 ASI .....cutting corners. Not being able to tell that the aircraft was about to stall (1 wing dropped a couple of times and recovered, The very hi angle of attack). Mmmm

 

infact the only thing telling them that a overspeed was occurring was the computer. So they listened to that instead of what the plane was trying very hard to tell them. AND surely if reducing thrust gave such a instant negative result.

 

Would you not INSTINCTIVELY throttle back up. (I know my hand would not have left the quadrant b4 I had done that).

 

Fact is I don't think they had a clue what to do. Because the computer was couldn't tell them.

 

And WHY WHY WHY would you suddenly trust the other ASI. And WHY WHY WHY would you not assume the overspeed alarms were linked to the malfunctioning ASI as the MOST LIKELY cause. No lets act upon the lest likely cause.

 

Being that in a climb on reduced thrust WE ARE OVERSPEEDING ??????????

 

MY DISCLAIMER: I am well aware that the information from which I have come to these conclusions. Has come from Mr TV. And as such the actual events may not have happened the way Mr TV portrayed. If this were to be the case, then I would be in NO position to pass any judgment as to the true cause of the crash.

 

 

[farri]

Okay,Fact is I don't think they had a clue what to do. Because the computer couldn't tell them.QUOTE]It appears to me, that we keep coming bact to, " When all else fails,fly the aircraft".

 

The real question.......If the aircraft was flyable,why wasn`t it flown.

 

Frank.