Drifter engine outs

[jordy]

Hey guys,

 

The question is has anybody had an engine out in a Drifter?

 

If so what was the handling like? Glide speed and attitude and also the reason for the outage?

 

I, like most of us plan for the event whilst flying at all times but (touch wood) it has not happened so i was trying to gauge a likely response. i_dunno

 

Regards

 

Jordy

 

 

[Tomo]

Flies and handles the same in my opinion. Keep the nose down and maintain 55kts at all times. (or whatever best glide is in your machine)

 

Get your spot landings pretty well sorted on idle, then go back up and switch it off. Then it's all very quiet.... :big_grin:

 

Once you switch it off, wait till the motor stops turning, then switch mags back on, that way if you need to restart you're ready for it.

 

Have fun!

 

Oh, why do I do it? Same reason you're thinking of, to see what the difference is.

 

 

[jordy]

Thanks Tomo,

 

But.....................pull start !

 

 

[Tomo]

But.....................pull start !

Well I've never restarted in the air before, always once I've landed. I just get ready for it.

 

It is pretty good fun engine off, landing is really nice, as you don't have all that dirty air over the tail. You certainly feel a little apprehensive at first, but once you've done it a couple times, it's all pretty fun - bit addictive at times!

 

 

[farri]

Thanks Tomo,But.....................pull start !

I started off with pull start,cable came up beside the instrument panel and was pulled from the front seat.

 

Engine Failures?.....Had too many in the early days,various places for various reasons,several with students on board,three on take off,below 150feet,always had somewhere to land,never got a scratch.

 

Reasons?...Varied,from fuel starvation to crankshaft bearing failure and more.

 

What`s it handle like?....That depends on the particular aircraft and the way it`s being flown,I can tell you that mine will do most maneuvers that can be done with the engine running,simple needs a different methodology,in short, the AC shouldn`t fly any worse with the engine off.

 

There`s been fatalities trying to restart a dead engine,the most important thing to do is to stay calm and,Never forget to fly the aircraft, if the engine has stoped it most likely won`t start again,obtain best glide speed as quickly as possible,this gives the most time in the air to make accurate decissions.

 

It would be very brave of anyone to recomend publicly,that practise should be done by switching the engine off.

 

Everyone should do what sits right with themselves and not exceed their own ability, however, one thing is completely certain, Never stop practising dead stick landings.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[jordy]

Thanks guys,

 

Frank I know we spoke of this some time ago privately and have tried some of the ideas you suggested with great success. 99% of my landings are glide approaches at different air speeds (safe ones) and 50kts seem to be the optimum, for me in my particular machine. Obviously varying for changed conditions.

 

I basically have the question as David ... does the machine windmill ( not I guess after a siezure) and how does it affect the speed/glide?

 

 

[Tomo]

Frank and Tomo; one question though , I have never had a genuine engine out in a drifter. I have just done idle practice engine outs. Does the 503 / 582 stop at 50/55 knots or will it wind mill? At what actual airspeed does it tend to physically stop windmilling, where there is no mechanical reason for the stop?David

No, it doesn't windmill (well it hasn't for me). I always be pretty gentle with my engines, so operate at a lower power setting for a bit, then idle, then switch it off. That way temps are stable, and much more gentle on everything in my opinion.

 

So if you do that, on idle you are maintaining 50/55kts, so when you switch if off you're already there, so your prop will probably spin down a bit slower, takes about 5 - 8 seconds (roughly) depending on the day to stop spinning.

 

If you switch it off then basically slow the aircraft up, it will stop much quicker.

 

If you don't feel comfortable about doing it, don't force yourself to do it, get an instructor to do it with you or whatever. As it is a fairly (particularly with pull start) one way avenue.

 

I've had the benefit of gliding, so you get used to a once off chance at landing the thing, so the first time I switched the motor off wasn't as scary as I first thought it was going to be.

 

Deadstick landings (without the worry if it was a real failure) are really nice to do, as the air is all clean around you, no propeller to stir things up.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

It would be very brave of anyone to recomend publicly,that practise should be done by switching the engine off.

Not least because, IIRC, the RAAus manual prohibits it (other than with a CFI)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Tomo]

Not least because, IIRC, the RAAus manual prohibits it (other than with a CFI)

Interesting. Does anyone know where I could find said prohibition in the manual?

 

 

[facthunter]

Shutting Engine down.

 

I agree with Crezzi. I don't believe it is permitted except for the purposes of demonstration with a CFI. That is the ONLY time I have done them and that prior to doing an air restart (windmilling prop). I would not recommend attempting an air restart (In flight restart) without a starter motor. You would not guarantee a narrow blade prop doing much and with a geared engine, even less likely. The CAO's, CAR's over ride and supplement RAAus manual.

 

I am sure that powered gliders would be separately treated. Would be a bit silly otherwise. The renouned skywriter Fred Hoinville was killed in one at Goulburn on T/O in the 50's?. THEY have been around for a long time. Nev

 

 

[farri]

The one exception being if you bounce badly you will have no power to arrest the resultant sink from the diminishing airspeed following the bounce and if you are gliding short, you will have no power to get you over the fence. At what actual airspeed does it tend to physically stop windmilling, where there is no mechanical reason for the stop?

 

David

G`Day David

 

A while back,I was exchanging notes with a very experienced and well know,AUF/RAA CFI from the SE corner of Queensland,we were discussing engine failures and the amount we`d both had,believe it or not,he said he stoped counting at 40.

 

On falling short.....One of the dangers of engine failure is landing short of the chosen area.......Saw it happen right in front of me......The guy was coming back in to land,was 1000' AGL,downwind leg,about 15kts wind, had an engine out,could have made it safely no problems at all,panicked,kept trying to restart,got carried too far downwind,turned final and base leg,realised he was going to fall short, tried to stretch the glide by holding the nose up,hit the ground hard 100 meters short,fortunately the aircraft received more damage than he did,the glide can`t be stretched,always maintain a safe IAS.

 

It is extremely important to be able to side slip the Drifter....... I`m continuously practising this after 25 years......... To avoid falling short, it is important to turn base leg and final with more height than required,excess height can be washed off by side sliping.If a sudden sink or strong wind shear occurs on final, chances are that you won`t make it,if you only have a minimum of height.

 

Windmilling.......If the engine is not seized it will windmill at the correct speed....The speed required would depend on,Compression,Gearbox gear ratio,the diameter,number of blades and pitch of the prop.

 

I`m currently running a Rotax 503 DCDI, E type 2.62:1 ratio gearbox with an Ivo ground adjustable prop set at what I call,neutral pitch and anything over 45 IAS will make it windmill,40/45 it will turn once about every 10 seconds,to stop it completely I need to keep it around 40,in perfect conditions,I get best glide around 40.

 

If anyone needs any pointers on side slipping,just ask.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, A turn of the prop every now and then,makes no difference to glide.

 

 

[Tomo]

I agree with Crezzi. I don't believe it is permitted except for the purposes of demonstration with a CFI.

Thanks Nev, I agree with it in larger aircraft, but something like a Drifter or whatever (for arguments sake) I really can't see a problem with if it's being done safely. Can you?

 

Mind you if it's in the regulations saying it isn't allowed, I'll stop doing it. But I can't seem to find anything as yet. Anyone know where to look?

 

Dick Smith was saying one day, that he goes up to 4000ft or so in his trike and switches off...

 

 

[farri]

I really can't see a problem,if it's being done safely. Can you?G`Day Tomo,

 

Hyperthetical.......lHere`s the problem......Inexperienced pilot goes up, thinks aircraft is positioned just right to the landing area, switches off the engine only to find a little while later that in fact it`s all wrong and not going to make it.

 

No problem,electric start,just restart the engine...prop has been turning and engine has flooded...no problem,just keep trying to restart...won`t start and battery goes flat...Situation gets worse,:crying:panick sets in,airspeed gets too low,aircraft stalls then spins.

 

Outcome.????????:ne_nau:

 

I know,I know,Hyperthetical.

 

Frank.

[Tomo]

Indeed Frank, though in my case the prop doesn't spin - reinforced by the fact I switch the ignition back on, so If it does I don't end up with a flooded engine, as you mention.

 

That aside, what I'm pretty interested in now is if it is supposedly illegal (for want of a better word) to do?

 

You say you get best glide at 40kts? Seems pretty low, the one's I've flown stall at about 32-38kts.

 

 

[farri]

Tomo,I should have pointed this out,however,everyone should know this.

 

When we talk about IAS,stall or any other speed,we need to remember that for the figures to mean anything,the ASI needs to be accurately callibrated.

 

I have flown many different types and test flown for others and I have never accepted the figures given to me untill I see them,I will put the aircraft through different maneuvers and read what the ASI is telling me,it could read in carrots,for all I care, as long as I know how many carrots.

 

Best Glide... My book figure is 43kts/MTOW., with just me,IAS can go around 38kts ,with very little difference.

 

Stall Speed... 36kts/MTOW. With just me,doesn`t drop the nose till around 32kts indicated.

 

Switching the engine off in flight,Is it Illegal?......I was once told,Illegal is a sick bird.

 

Disclamer: I`m not sugesting that anyone partake in illegal operations,if in doubt,Check the RAA ops manual and CAOs & CARs.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Glide speed.

 

For some of you lightweight fellows those speeds might work, but if you get the drifter ( And I have only flown the SB, Strutted), with a couple of largish people on board, you will get a pretty high sink rate with the engine on slow idle or stopped and you need more speed than you might expect, for several reasons.

 

1. you are nose heavy and the elevator is less effective.

 

2. you are descending at a fast sink rate so you need a bit of extra to arrest the sink rate and flare.

 

3. In any kind of headwind you are coming at a steep approach angle and if anything should be advised, I would suggest that you stay in a position where you think you are overshooting. As Frank says you can get rid of height by sideslipping and another way is to dive the plane at a faster speed than normal. The plane is pretty draggy and comes down like a brick and the bit of excess speed is washed off pretty easily during the flare.. You cannot stretch the glide. The temptation to do it is strong. Nev

 

 

[farri]

WB Drifter Versus SB Drifter.

 

Nev,Have flown SB Drifters,two completely different machines,heavier and more dragy than the WB,couple with two heavy guys and you are right.

 

Ther is a difference between the WB Drifters also,depending on wheather the AC is standard,or not.

 

Example... I don`t need a lot of room so I chose to stay with the standard small pod,large pod makes a difference.

 

Everyone keep in mind that we are talking generaly,to be precise,we must identify the particular AC.

 

Tomo,Talking 2 stroke here,don`t get fooled into thinking that because you switch the ignition back on that the engine can`t flood,the amount of fuel sucked into the engine would depend on how fast the prop is turning and for how long.

 

The ignition is on but the engine is not firing.

 

Frank

 

 

[facthunter]

2-stroke turning with ignition off.

 

The engine will build up a bit of internal "wetness'. This is a bit like flooding it. You may need a fair bit of throttle to bring it back to life. It will also cool internally, as the fuel is eveporating to a certain extent but with no heat added due to burning and the wet fuel washes off some of the oil. If you want to get an idea how much cooling is involved spray a bit of fuel through a spray gun onto your skin and feel it. You will get a muffler full of combustible fuel/gas too that may rupture when the engine fires up and ignites it.

 

On the subject of sideslipping Frank, I reckon I could count on one hand the number of pilots who I have seen do it right.. I don't think it is taught or used much... Pity.. I am an old sideslipper totally I don't much care whether the plane has flaps or not and I always tend to fly minimum sized circuits almost to the point of cramping it a bit. In the Citabria, which I now don't own anymore, it was pretty much part of any normal approach to slip at some point during the approach, particularly turning onto final. ..... Nev

 

 

[Spin]

Do you want to elaborate on the subject of side slipping properly, Nev? I have to agree it is a very useful technique to have in the quiver and tend to use it fairly regularly. My RA instructor seemed a little surprised that I was familiar and comfortable with them when I converted.

 

 

[Tomo]

Thanks guys

 

Tomo,Talking 2 stroke here,don`t get fooled into thinking that because you switch the ignition back on that the engine can`t flood,the amount of fuel sucked into the engine would depend on how fast the prop is turning and for how long.

When I clicked the submit button, I thought to myself... someone will surely bite there! Indeed - one of the drifters I fly actually has a fuel shut off tap, so if you're really worried, I guess that's what it's there for. (you can operate it from the front seat, which shuts off the main fuel line in)

 

I've never used it though, I've never 'yet' had an issue with restarting once on the ground, just hit the starter and it fires right up. I should add, that was the SB582 that I have been doing it on.

 

But I understand the implications completely.

 

I thought it must have been a ASI/IAS thing Frank, just wasn't sure.

 

I've flown the 503 WB, 582 SB, 582 WB. Yet to fly the four stroke 912!

 

I've also found no two drifters are exactly alike in performance, pretty close, but some better than others - obviously depends on how you set the prop in a lot of ways.

 

I didn't actually know it was illegal to shut the fan down ... interesting,

Is it illegal? No one seems to know yet for sure.

 

Nev, is it possible to explain on what a 'proper' slip supposed to contain? or is that a bit hard to do with a key board and letters?

 

I slip fairly regularly, especially the drifters, some pilots are surprised at me, I just think it normal to do... who knows if I'm doing it right, I've never had other instructors say if I am or not.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Shutting an engine down in flight, other than for emergency, is partly illegal, as in, its only permitted by approved people, such as CFI's and approved Senior Instructors

 

 

[facthunter]

sideslipping.

 

I'm happy to get the views of others. I'd like Frank to contribute as he brought the topic up. Perhaps if I were to mention some of the common faults as I see them.

 

A lot of people do not find them comfortable and are not impressed with the manoeuver when I demonstrate it.

 

Faults.

 

Doing it too fast. The plane does get more stressed and the big rate of descent is not achieved. Particularly the descent ANGLE.

 

Not enough wing down. The manoeuver becomes an ugly skid. Some pilots do not take the power off fully.

 

Control of the airspeed during the slip. This is essential if the exercise is to be safe. (Done in the normal way ,with elevator).

 

Combine the slip with a turn. This is the real McCoy.

 

Use the x-wind to supplement the slip direction, when appropriate.

 

Recovery should be smooth and very controlled especially if you do it to flare height. Don't slip to low heights till you are VERY competant. If you are too fast at the point of "straightening up". the plane will balloon and you will float more than necessary and you will lose the point of doing the slip which is to do a controlled approach over obstacles to land in the shortest distance ( lowest safe speed.).

 

This is done from recollection and not from any reference, so it is my thoughts and we can start from there. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Do you want to elaborate on the subject of side slipping properly, Nev? QUOTE]Spin,not sure what you mean,as Pauline Hanson would say,"Please Explain".

 

Nev,happy to contribute but need to know what is asked for.

 

Frank.

[Spin]

Frank, I was picking up on Nev's comment to you that he could count the number of people who he has seen do it right (side slip) on one hand. I'm a low time pilot and always keen to hear what others have to say on subjects like this. As I said, I use the technique fairly frequently but other than a caution not to let it get too slow, have never received much feedback.

 

 

[farri]

Frank, I was picking up on Nev's comment to you that he could count the number of people who he has seen do it right (side slip) on one hand. QUOTE]If performed correctly, side slipping increases the rate of decent and reduces the distance traveled forward relative to a normal approach,The rate of decent is governed by thrust, angle of bank and angle of attack , (air speed ).

 

To side slip, the aircraft must be banked, top or opposite rudder applied to stop the AC turning into the low wing, the throttle set to the required amount of thrust and airspeed (AOA) be controlled to achieve the required rate of decent, the maneuver is a combination of actions performed simultaneously.

 

To achieve the greatest rate of decent, the highest angle of bank, the lowest airspeed and the lowest possible amount of thrust is required.

 

To keep the AC side slipping and tracking in a straight line, the rudder and ailerons must apply equal force, if the amount of rudder and aileron input are not equal, then the AC will either turn into the low wing or turn in the opposite direction.

 

The rule of thumb is always to side slip low wing into wind, however, high wing into wind can be used to advantage.

 

Put in a 1 2 3 4, explanation, if I want to achieve the greatest rate of decent, I will first reduce the power right off, raise the nose, apply maximum angle of bank, and apply the required amount of opposite rudder, if I want to get extreme, I bring it just to the stall then side slip, this can loose two to three hundred feet really quick, not for the faint hearted or beginners.

 

If altitude needs to be lost,side sliping is very usefull in the turn especially at base leg and final.Because the AC is already banked,applying top rudder will cause it to side slip and loose height.

 

With complete control, the side slip can be maintained to within inches of the ground, then by releasing pressure on the controls and coming back to the neutral position, the ac will simply straighten up and touch down.

 

Frank.

 

Disclaimer …In the interest of safety… The comments I have made are my own and I take no responsibility for their interpretation, everyone should refer to their flight instructor.