Drifter engine outs

[facthunter]

Getting this in Context.

 

When I made the "less than one hand" statement. THAT relates to my modern-times observations.

 

I started and soloed on Chipmunks and got endorsed on the Tiger moth immediately.

 

EVERYONE who flew the tiger sideslipped it. That is how you flew the plane..

 

When the Cessna's and Piper Cherokee's came along they had flaps ( the cessna's were very effective ). and the idea (practice) of sideslipping became "passe". It's still relevant to one method of crosswind landing.( there is NO ONE method for me, it is a combination but...)

 

Aerobatic pilots do it . IF your aircraft has a long nose ALA Spitfire or like replica, you may do it to have some view forward till during the flare.( when you only see out the sides)

 

Frank has described it well. It requires you to KNOW ABSOLUTELY what you (and the plane) are doing. Done at the right speed it doesn't stress the planes structure either. Nev

 

 

[Spin]

. I would not want to do a glide approach in any high performance aircraft into a short emergency field with no flap and no ability to slide slip, that would be a scary prospect and so unnecessary.David

Scary prospect indeed and exactly the scenario you could face after a fire with an electrical origin. Seems I should count myself fortunate to have been taught to slip at all. Thanks for the input Nev and Frank.

 

 

[monty]

I'm with you Tomo,

 

I do it on a regular basis.It is very relaxing from 3000 feet, you have plenty of time to feel it and I love the quiet.

 

I think it is better to know what you can do with your Aircraft BEFORE it does it to you. But make sure you can spot land at idle before you try it. I did not no it was prohibited ? Just my 2 Cents worth. I hope I haven't upset anyone with my comments.

 

Cheers

 

Monty

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Guys,I have asked some questions on the statements in this tread that have implied it is illegal to deliberately shut down your engine in flight.......

No one has come back to us indicating where it states it is illegal???

 

My information is that it is in fact NOT illegal... that of course does not mean it is safe to do so. If you know your aircraft it may be fine, but it is always at your risk. I would do it, but only in circumstances where I was confident that a failed restart would not get me in trouble.

 

David

I was rather hoping that one of the sceptics would have reread the RAAus operations manual (its not blindingly obvious but it is in there !)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

Questioning it.

 

David I have always been under the impression that a deliberate inflight shut-down of a serviceable engine in a single could only be done with a CFI or a designated qualified instructor delegated by the CFI. It was done to do the inflight windmilling engine start technique. Some aircraft had no starters(ie Moth early Cub etc). I don't believe that many RAAus engines because they are geared or the prop is a "toothpick" type would be able to be restarted without a starter, so the logic might be that it is an unnecessary AVOIDABLE hazard.... Nev

 

 

[Tomo]

I'd be blowed If I can find it in the RAA Ops manual, anyone know where to look? (just spent a couple hrs on it - though that don't mean nothin! )

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Been interesting reading, that's for sure. Both manouvers, the controlled side slip, and shuting the engine off in flight, are valuable skills that all pilots should possess. If they are both practised or used regulary, the pilot will be in a much better position to save himself if either skill is necessary to get back on the ground safely.

 

I use the side slip often, usually to adjust my final approach to landing. In many cases it is essential if you are going to put the aircraft down, and get pulled up on a short strip, by landing on the first quarter of the strip.

 

I started shutting my engine off totally, first in my small biplane, and then in my 582 WB Drifter. The bipe had no starter, the Drifter was electric start. Both aircraft flew exceptionally well with the prop stopped, with no manouvering problems. I am not in the habit off switching off without an airstrip or other suitable landing site below me. I have never once missed my selected landing site. Only once have I miss-judged the landing flare (Drifter) which resulted in a harder than normal arrival. This was because I let the airspeed decay slightly right at the end.

 

The more you do the better you get. I'm with Tomo, it can get addictive listening to the wind in the wires ! At one point in the Drifter I was probabily doing every second landing with the engine switched off. Both manouvers CAN be excuted safely with prior thought and planning

 

Why are these great skills becoming the exception instead of the rule ?

 

Because people sitting in offices in Canberra who don't even fly think they are dangerous.......they have not experienced them....they don't have the skills !.

 

A pilot who possesses these skills in my opinion is by far a much safer and capable pilot. Unlike the average GA pilot, who because of regulations has never seen his prop stopped, they don't immediatly head for the nearest thing they can find, that resembles a sealed runway. Unfortunatly too often this ends up being a residential street, or a busy highway............................................Maj...

 

 

[HEON]

Have read with interest the posts.

 

Side slipping I never did but now using as Drifter and Super Petrel do not have flaps, although not much is ever needed as both have considerable built in drag.

 

Drifter when 912 shut off the prop stops quickley. For that matter a 914 gliding around 80kt the prop stops as well. The second was not intentional!

 

 

[S.Drifter]

Interesting reading.

 

I must say the 912 doesn't windmill when you switch it off, it just stops.

 

I would just like to say one should be aware that you can flood a 503 in a heavy RH side- slip, doesn't seem to do it in a left hander and have never experienced it with the 912. I can gurantee it will concentrate the mind when you slip from 500'agl to tree top to bolck up stock and there's only enough there to to keep you level untill she clears her throat. How do I know this??

 

 

[farri]

...seems to me there is confusion between a 'forward' slip and a 'side' slip!!.....

Thanks cfi.

 

Ok let`s try and clear it up.

 

Foward Slip....The aircraft follows it`s intended flight path but it`s longitudinal axis is not aligned with it`s path,therefore when coming in to land,in a straight line on final,the maneuver is a foward slip,not a side slip.

 

Side Slip....When the controls are crossed or the ball in the skid and slip indicator is on the inside of the turn or the low wing.When top rudder is used in the turn, this is a side slip.

 

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Tomo]

From Wiki

 

Forward-slip -The forward slip will change the heading of the aircraft away from the down wing, while retaining the original track (flight path over the ground) of the aircraft.

 

A forward-slip is useful when a pilot has set up for a landing approach with excessive height or must descend steeply beyond a tree line to touchdown near the start of a short runway. Assuming that the runway is properly lined up, the forward slip will allow the aircraft track to be maintained while steepening the descent without adding excessive airspeed. Since the heading is not aligned with the runway, the slip must be removed before touchdown to avoid excessive side loading on the landing gear, and if a cross wind is present an appropriate side slip may be necessary at touchdown as described below.

 

In the United States, student pilots are required to know how to do forward slips before embarking on their first solo flight. The logic is that in the event of an engine failure, the pilot will have to land on the first attempt and will not have a chance to go around if the aircraft is too high and/or too fast.

 

Sideslip -

 

The sideslip also uses opposite aileron and rudder. In this case it is entered by lowering a wing and exactly enough opposite rudder so the airplane does not turn (maintaining the same heading), while adding airspeed as required.

 

In the sideslip condition, the airplane's longitudinal axis remains parallel to the original flightpath, but the airplane no longer flies straight along its original track. Now, the horizontal component of lift forces the airplane to move sideways toward the low wing.

 

A sideslip is also one of the methods used by pilots to execute a crosswind landing. In order to land crosswind using the sideslip method, the pilot puts the airplane into a sideslip toward the wind to maintain runway centerline position while maintaining heading on the centerline with the rudder, touching one main landing gear, followed by the second main gear, and finally the nose gear (or tail gear if employed). This allows the wheels to be constantly aligned with the track, thus avoiding any side load at touchdown.

 

The slideslip method for cross-wind landings is not suitable for long winged and low sitting aircraft such as sailplanes, where instead a crab angle (heading into the wind) is maintained until a moment before touchdown.

[farri]

Side Slip.

 

Fixed Wing Flight Training.

 

the slip

 

Types of slip vary in degree from inadvertently flying cross-controlled in the cruise i.e. one wing slightly low and compensating with opposite rudder, to a fully-fledged cross-controlled turn where the aircraft is steeply banked in a descending turn with full opposite rudder applied. All slips result in increased drag. This is a manoeuvre only for the pilot who has a very good feel for his/her aircraft because, among other things, the ASI will probably be giving a false airspeed readout. There seem to be as many definitions of the types of slip as there are exponents of slip techniques but the safe execution of all sideslips requires adequate instruction and continuing practice.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Side slipping.

 

If you have bank on and stop the turn with "top" rudder, you are sideslipping. You use it (as Farri says) to make the plane more "draggy" so it comes down quicker ( a higher sink rate) but does not gain unwanted airspeed which would cause you to float excessively during the landing.

 

You can do a sideslipping turn where you can turn toward the lower wing because the rudder has reached the limit of it's authority.

 

Precise control of airspeed is essential, or you are DANGEROUS. The airspeed will under read as the pitot is not pointing where the air is coming from, but too high an airspeed is not as effective and puts a lot of side load on the fin and rudder and a twisting load on the fuselage, and it FEELs horrible as a manoeuver.

 

The discussion of the definitions of various forms of slipping can be confusing as what is happening in the air is the same in all cases. You are flying in the airmass but you fly towards the lower wing so that alters your track over the ground, as does a crosswind when you have one. If you want to use the two to your advantage, that is fine in a crosswind landing situation. If you have a difficulty seeing why it would be BAD to have the downwind wing down, then you shouldn't have been sent solo, to put it directly.

 

Following from Frank, It's good idea to be able to do this as you might not have flaps available one time. Make sure that you have been trained by someone who explains the method and technique properly and that you FULLY understand the principles and are sure of what you and the plane are doing at all times. This is not a manoeuver that you can "bluff" your way through or do by numbers, so get it right. Nev

 

 

[farri]

David, Believe it or not,I`m just having fun, playing the game here.

 

Commonwealth Of Australia.

 

Flight Instructor's Manual.

 

Sideslipping.

 

Aim.....To teach a student,by use of a sideslip,how to increase the rate and angle of descent with no increase in foward speed.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Just to make things more difficult.......from the previous post:..."with no increase in foward speed". Do they mean no increase in indicated airspeed on the ASI ?...or do they intend to mean : no increase in foward speed across the ground ?...which is generally the case in a sideslip as you are actually increasing/steepening your angle of descent toward the ground.

 

Your indicated airspeed in a sideslip can be adjusted with use of elevator (as mentioned in a prev post ) to achieve a selected speed of arrival at the flare point.

 

I'm thinking they mean foward speed across the ground ????.......................Maj...

 

A fun and stimulating post by the way, with some interesting input from all.!!!!!!

 

 

[farri]

Sideslip/Fowardslip.

 

"To increase the rate and angle of descent,with no increase in forward speed".

 

" With no increase in forward speed", Ambiguous yes, but the point of my post is to show, that unless the system has changed it`s mind, "a sideslip is but a sideslip".

 

Both Tomo and I have posted what the technical definition of a forwardslip is, so everyone make up your own mind what you want to call the maneuver, just don`t break yourself or the aircraft trying to achieve it.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[tvaner]

I'd be blowed If I can find it in the RAA Ops manual, anyone know where to look? (just spent a couple hrs on it - though that don't mean nothin! )

Try here in the Ops. Manual Tomo - Section 3.04 - 44. (Bottom of the page)

 

 

[Tomo]

Try here in the Ops. Manual Tomo - Section 3.04 - 44. (Bottom of the page)

You're a legend Keith, thanks for that.

 

Maybe i should GA register the Drfiter....... ;)

 

 

[willatodd]

have to put my two bobs worth in here i started flying in an old blanik glider and side slipping was a standard approach i can say now that i am glad i did as it has come in handy with every other aircraft i have flown most recently the gyro albeit only to compensate for the x wind landings. ( only gyro training and only ever soloed the gliders so experience very limited).

 

 

[farri]

Ok guys don`t get me wrong,I`m not recommending that anyone throw the rule book out or that they blatantly disregard the regulations.

 

Safety First........No one in their right mind should want to, or attempt to switch off the engine at a busy aerodrome where there might be several AC in the circuit area.

 

If the engine is going to be switched off, the AC should be in an area where it is not a threat to any other AC or anyone on the ground and it should be well within gliding distance of a safe landing area,always keep in mind,that for whatever reason,it may not start again.

 

If a dead stick landing is going to be carried out,keep in mind that wind shear can cause undershoot or overshoot of your landing area,both of which could be fatal.

 

In my opinion, rules will never stop those who really want to do something from doing it,in this case, the most importent thing is that it be done saftely and with no inconvenience to others, the result being that it can only improve ones skill and therefore it should be a good thing.

 

well shouldn`t it?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Tex]

WB Drifter Versus SB Drifter.Nev,Have flown SB Drifters,two completely different machines,heavier and more dragy than the WB,couple with two heavy guys and you are right.

 

Frank

I know this is an old thread just browsing on a Drifter search but SB drifters more draggy than the WB?

 

 

[facthunter]

I haven't flown anything but the SB. I know plenty who have the WB and I think the consideration relates to weight. The Wire one will perform better at low(er) speeds than the SB which seems to need more speed to carry the weight ' Has to fly faster generally. With only one person onboard they are both different aeroplanes. At max weight on a warm day the SB needs a good prop and the 582 power. There is a max (& min) weight for the front seat person. IF you are too light you are supposed to add weight in the seat cushion. IF you are too heavy you can't do much about that except add weight to the rear of the plane, ( if you are the only one flying it and you should placard the plane accordingly) or just flare a bit higher and have a bit more speed on landing. Nose heaviness will reduce the planes performance as the extra download on the tail acts as extra weight. Nev

 

 

[XP503]

I own an original maxair xp503, such a beautiful machine to fly

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I've flown both SB and WB quite a bit, and there's not a lot between them in speed, certainly not when you consider the SB was nearly twice as expensive out of the factory. The SB will wiggle it's wingtips in turbulance where the WB won't. Now a Wayne Fisher machine , that's a whole different ballgame !......yeeha !!.................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes the original Maxair with the 503 is a nice machine and very capable for what it is really...................................Maj...