Advertising your flight.

[sseeker]

Well I had an interesting encounter on facebook just then, I posted a comment on my 'wall' asking if anyone wanted to come for a fly this weekend and split the cost. A GA guy (a very nice person) that I've known for quite some time posted that what I said was illegal, he did say that it may be different for RA-Aus though. He said that you can't publically announce that you can take people flying with cost sharing unless you own an air operators certificate or a flight training facility. Well turns out under regulation 210 you can't, but it quotes under CAO 95.55, "regulation 210 insofar as advertising of flying training to qualify for a pilot standard specified in the RAA Operations Manual is concerned;" - I take it this means that you're not exempt from anything in this regulation apart from the fact you can advertise flight training for your flight training facility for the issue of a Pilot Cert under the RA-Aus ops manual, yeah?

 

This aviation law stuff is really starting to get on my nerves

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Tomo]

Something like that

 

 

[djpacro]

A thought for you (my opinion only):

 

- Facebook is not a public announcement - I can't see it, for example, can i?

 

 

[winsor68]

Yes... Facebook is your own page and thus not I would imagine advertising... said GA pilot needs to remove stick from anatomy.

 

 

[sseeker]

A thought for you (my opinion only):- Facebook is not a public announcement - I can't see it, for example, can i?

You're right dj but I could put this on a billboard and advertise it but you might not necessarily see it. This is strange because I've never heard of it before and most pilots I speak to (RAA and GA) do the exact same thing!

 

-Andrew

 

EDIT:

 

Note - This GA pilot is actually a very nice person!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Perhaps the finer points need to be examined..

 

If your FaceBook page is "Public" then it would be a public advertisement, but if it is only viewable by a "closed user group" (your Friends), then it would not be an advertisement.

 

Some other factors come into play... It cannot be regular, to a timetable or in any way construed to be "public transport", even if only on a cost sharing basis.

 

* Just my personal opinion, not legal advice.

 

 

[sseeker]

Thanks David, I'm really not sure what to think on this one. Most people I know just ask if you wanna split the costs! How is anyone supposed to know about cost splitting before reading the CAR if I can't tell them?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Tomo]

supposed to know about cost splitting before reading the CAR if I can't tell them?

It's one word that has the problem, and that's called "Aviation".

 

People ask me if they can go for a flight, and I usually just say, "of course!" But it does cost this much to hire the aircraft, so if we can go halves.......?

 

Obviously you don't go flying strangers about, as it is something that you do at your own risk................... particularly when I'm the pilot

 

Does make it affordable flying when you can do that, and there is nothing illegal about it, in fact if they payed for the full hire cost, and you flew them around for free, I believe that is still legal too? How could it not be, to be classed as payed flying, you make a profit from it? Dunno, I usually just go halves or nothing, as it is for my own joy as well!

 

That's basically the whole point to this rule I think, whatever you do, don't make a profit! Quite appropriate for aviation in a sense.

 

 

[farri]

Most people I know just ask if you wanna split the costs! Legaly,how would this go.......... " Going flying this weekend,seat avaiable,would appreciate a contribution towards the cost". :ne_nau:

 

No money has actually been asked for.

 

Frank.

[Spin]

It's one word that has the problem, and that's called "Aviation". People ask me if they can go for a flight, and I usually just say, "of course!" But it does cost this much to hire the aircraft, so if we can go halves.......?

 

Obviously you don't go flying strangers about, as it is something that you do at your own risk................... particularly when I'm the pilot

 

Does make it affordable flying when you can do that, and there is nothing illegal about it, in fact if they payed for the full hire cost, and you flew them around for free, I believe that is still legal too? How could it not be, to be classed as payed flying, you make a profit from it? Dunno, I usually just go halves or nothing, as it is for my own joy as well!

 

That's basically the whole point to this rule I think, whatever you do, don't make a profit! Quite appropriate for aviation in a sense.

By that logic you could operate quite a few of the world's airlines, they don't make a profit either.:big_grin: Not true - you need to pay your share too, so the most you can ask of anyone is cost of flight, divided by the number of occupants. The logic is cost sharing rather than profit related.

 

 

[Tomo]

By that logic you could operate quite a few of the world's airlines, they don't make a profit either.:big_grin: Not true - you need to pay your share too, so the most you can ask of anyone is cost of flight, divided by the number of occupants. The logic is cost sharing rather than profit related.

Mmm yeah... thought there was a cliche in there somewhere.

 

If you can bare with me - can I just pose a few scenarios.

 

If someone rang me up and asked if I could fly them in their plane somewhere, how would you work that? "Legally"?

 

So I give my time for free, and I don't pay anything for the aircraft either. There isn't any cost sharing in there is there? Maybe if you consider what I'd charge myself out if it was a paying job? I can't see any problem with that, and I can't see anything in the regs that would go against it either.

 

So given that, what happens if I get a phone call from a friend who asks if I want to fly him somewhere, and he'll hire the aircraft.

 

Same scenario, similar costs to the person (vs owner cost/hire cost), I still don't earn anything from it other than the joy of flying.

 

I'm pretty interested to hear others thoughts, as it seems to be a tender spot.

 

A PPL pilot can pilot a Jump plane, with fare paying jumpers (to the company) but he himself doesn't get payed, he doesn't pay the running cost and fuel of the aircraft either does he?

 

Oh the joys....

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Restriction of advertising of commercial operations 210. A person shall not give any public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations unless the last-mentioned person has obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.

Our next question is 'what is a commercial operation'? In the time honoured style of legislation, the definition is vague (and therefore probably next to useless).

 

"commercial operations" means civil air operations other than private operations

Then we ask 'well what's a private operation'? and of course there's no definition and we're left up to our own devices.I'd argue that a commercial operation is one where you're aiming for a profit, or at least payment beyond simple hiring costs. I'd argue that cost sharing isn't a commercial operation - an opinion which isn't just me it seems, when I got my PAX endo I had an FI cheerfully tell me that now I could build up hours for half price due to cost sharing and squeezing friends for money (although my friends seem to have other ideas at the moment).

 

I think the main thing here would be profit making intent - so you go into it intending to make a profit. Then it was be possible to easily argue that it is a commercial operation.

 

If someone rang me up and asked if I could fly them in their plane somewhere, how would you work that? "Legally"?

So I give my time for free, and I don't pay anything for the aircraft either.

 

So given that, what happens if I get a phone call from a friend who asks if I want to fly him somewhere, and he'll hire the aircraft.

 

Same scenario, similar costs to the person (vs owner cost/hire cost), I still don't earn anything from it other than the joy of flying.

Avoid the problem entirely by you paying for the aircraft hire then 'selling' him a tictac for whatever the hire price was? He didn't hire the aircraft, you did, he was just strange enough to want to pay that much for a tictac...

 

How is anyone supposed to know about cost splitting before reading the CAR if I can't tell them?

What I would do is put a note on fb asking if anyone wants to come for a fly, then if they say yes send them a private message that some contribution to the cost would be appreciated since hiring costs aren't cheap. Nobody can say you're advertising publicly then (I assume).

 

 

[NWpilot]

A PPL pilot can pilot a Jump plane, with fare paying jumpers (to the company) but he himself doesn't get payed, he doesn't pay the running cost and fuel of the aircraft either does he?

 

Oh the joys....

 

This isnt entirely correct, if the jump school doesnt charge for the guys jumping out the back then yes a PPL pilot can pilot that plane, if the cost of the plane is at anyway charged to the jumpers then the PPL pilot would also have to pay his share.

 

A PPL pilot can not pilot a flight that has any income deriving from that flight otherwise That would be like me going up to a Regional airline and saying that i would fly there planes for them for free (obviously if i had the correct endorsement, CSU, Turbo, RU etc) they would pick me over there CPL pilots everytime.

 

I could do the above if the flight was for a non profit airline or club, but i havent seen many of them around.

 

I have some issues with this as i have a few mates that are on a race circuit, there bikes travel by road but it is draining on them, so i offer to fly them but then i have to pay half the flight costs, at this stage i dont mind as it is getting me more hours so i can put my name on the Angel flight Pilot list, but when there race is in a town over 4 hrs flight time away, it does start to get $$$$$ for me, especially when i am taking a 182 or Arrow. any ways hope that helps

 

 

[sseeker]

Then we ask 'well what's a private operation'? and of course there's no definition and we're left up to our own devices.

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

What I would do is put a note on fb asking if anyone wants to come for a fly, then if they say yes send them a private message that some contribution to the cost would be appreciated since hiring costs aren't cheap. Nobody can say you're advertising publicly then (I assume).

Definition for 'private operation' as per CASA Visual Flight Guide,

 

"PRIVATE OPERATIONS CAR 2(7)D

 

The following are regarded as private operations:

 

• The personal transportation of the owner of the aircraft.
   
   
  
• Aeiral spotting where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted.
   
   
  
• Agricultural operations on land owned by the owner of the aircraft.
   
   
  
• Aerial photography where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted.
   
   
  

 

 

 

I also don't think it's legal to take skydivers up under a PPL regardless if you make any money because it is considered "aerial work"

 

Also Darky, good idea on the note!

 

-Andrew

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Definition for 'private operation' as per CASA Visual Flight Guide,"PRIVATE OPERATIONS CAR 2(7)D

 

The following are regarded as private operations:

 

• The personal transportation of the owner of the aircraft.
   
   
  
• Aeiral spotting where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted.
   
   
  
• Agricultural operations on land owned by the owner of the aircraft.
   
   
  
• Aerial photography where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted.
   
   
  

I didn't look there, nicely done

 

 

[Tomo]

Thanks guys, kinda helping a bit, still can't get my head around all the rules and exemptions yet though.

 

I guess through a club it would be different? Like glider towing for instance... the pilot does that for free... using the clubs aircraft, and members pay the club?

 

I thought that was how the jumping thing worked a bit too?

 

Not sure how it is now, but that used to be the thing, find a drop zone and donate your time to them, getting hrs up for your commercial.

 

 

[sseeker]

Tomo, I don't think any money can be earned as profit by the club otherwise it would be considered commercial, therefore your operation would be considered commercial. I *think*

 

 

[Spin]

Mmm yeah... thought there was a cliche in there somewhere. If you can bare with me - can I just pose a few scenarios.

 

If someone rang me up and asked if I could fly them in their plane somewhere, how would you work that? "Legally"?

 

So I give my time for free, and I don't pay anything for the aircraft either. There isn't any cost sharing in there is there? Maybe if you consider what I'd charge myself out if it was a paying job? I can't see any problem with that, and I can't see anything in the regs that would go against it either.

 

So given that, what happens if I get a phone call from a friend who asks if I want to fly him somewhere, and he'll hire the aircraft.

 

Same scenario, similar costs to the person (vs owner cost/hire cost), I still don't earn anything from it other than the joy of flying.

 

I'm pretty interested to hear others thoughts, as it seems to be a tender spot.

 

A PPL pilot can pilot a Jump plane, with fare paying jumpers (to the company) but he himself doesn't get payed, he doesn't pay the running cost and fuel of the aircraft either does he?

 

Oh the joys....

That is an interesting wrinkle Tomo, I suppose to be pedantic the cost of your flying someone else's aircraft (ie not hiring) is the fuel etc it takes to get wherever you're going; but as Darky says there are ways around it and it is difficult to see how you could come up short when all you're doing is volunteering your time as a favour. If I were in that position I promise you I'd find a way to make it work! Remember too that it's apparently ok charge the cost of flying yourself somewhere for work, to a client, in the same way you would driving there in a car. The way to do it seems to be a fixed charge per km, eg if you flew somewhere to fix a machine for someone instead of driving the ute there. Hoping to make use of this myself before long. The difference though is that you are using it as transportation for yourself.

 

As I understand it jump pilots operate under a specific dispensation, Ozzie n co can tell us more about it.

 

Edit: I see while I was chewing on my lunch the conversation moved on.

 

 

[sseeker]

Cfi what's wrong with that? If I did that I'm a private operator. ""commercial operations" means civil air operations other than private operations" And it says nothing about not being able to advertise. But even still you're taking a huge risk taking randoms flying, especially if the aeroplane was uninsured! I'm sure CASA wouldn't like it anyway.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[stanzahero]

Avoid the problem entirely by you paying for the aircraft hire then 'selling' him a tictac for whatever the hire price was? He didn't hire the aircraft' date=' you did, he was just strange enough to want to pay that much for a tictac...[/quote']Before Bob Ansett became an airline mogal, he used to hire himself out to drive people to Melbourne from the Mallee in Victoria.

 

When the government got wind of it they shut him down because he wasn't a licienced operator. To get around that he started selling oranges to his customers for the price of a trip to Melbourne.....

[Guest airsick]

Cfi what's wrong with that? If I did that I'm a private operator. ""commercial operations" means civil air operations other than private operations" And it says nothing about not being able to advertise. But even still you're taking a huge risk taking randoms flying, especially if the aeroplane was uninsured! I'm sure CASA wouldn't like it anyway.-Andrew

Yes it does, read the CARs...

 

(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is employed in a private operation if:

 

(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and

 

(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6; and

 

© no payment is made for the services of the operating crew; and

 

(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew, share equally in the costs of the flight; and

 

(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other than a payment under paragraph (d).

 

 

[sseeker]

Airsick I'm well aware of that. "with a fixed schedule between terminals" cfi said nothing about a fixed schedule.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Airsick I'm well aware of that. "with a fixed schedule between terminals" cfi said nothing about a fixed schedule.-Andrew

Let's just rephrase...

 

• If it is on a timetable, its commercial.
   
   
  
• If it is publicly advertised, it is commercial.
   
   
  

 

 

You cannot do either of these and claim to be private so you can use cost sharing to assist with defraying the costs of a flight.

 

If however you met a stranger and offered to take them on a flight on a cost share basis that would not be advertising, unless you were in the habit of soliciting cost sharing for flights with strangers, in which case it may be considered public, just as a bill board on the street corner or a sign hung around your neck would be advertising.

 

While you do it from time to time with a few friends and acquainances (ie. it is not a public offer) and it is not on a timetable (ie. you are not providing a substitute for public transport), then that's fine by my reading.

 

 

[sseeker]

Hold on a second, where did I say that I was going to do that? This seems to be going way off. I was simply replying to cficares scenario ;)

 

Also,

 

"Restriction of advertising of commercial operations 210. A person shall not give any public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations unless the last-mentioned person has obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations."

 

The only restriction on advertising seems to be on commercial operations, so in other words if I opened up "Andrews Skydive Business" and I was the pilot with a CPL and I was making profit, I'd need an AOC. However if I'm conducting private operations WITHOUT a timetable i.e passenger transport with a 50/50 cost share arrangement, I don't see anything stopping me. Obviously I wouldn't post in the newspaper, it was an offer on my facebook to my friends.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[poteroo]

The answer is in the interpretation of all the Regs.

 

Advertising to the 'general' public is a red flag to the Regulator. If you are 'announcing' in an 'aviation specific' forum that you seek to 'cost-share' .....then the view is most likely to be that, as the users of that forum understand something about aviation, it's caveat emptor for them.

 

In the case of where a person pays for the full cost of the aircraft - but is not themself a pilot - you are going to do that....then that's definitely a 'commercial' opn.

 

It's been a 'grey' area ever since I can remember. As someone else has posted......it's better to start cost sharing through your friends and acquaintances where you can explain things better....and they'll be more discreet.

 

As well - how do you know that the respondent on the phone is a punter? They could well be from CASA or RAA Ops, and feeling you out to see whether you are really trying to get around the rules. You'll then be busted, and rightly so!

 

Be warned.

 

happy days,