Advertising your flight.

[Mazda]

Tomo, be very careful. If someone hires the aircraft and you offer your flying services for free, that is a commercial operation. That means you need to have passed your CPL theory, have done a minimum of 200 hours (too late for 150 hour syllabus), 10 hours instrument, passed the flight test, hold a class 1 medical etc.

 

It also means the aircraft must be in charter category - i.e. a GA aircraft and in the category above airwork. So some flying school aircraft used for training will not comply.

 

Plus, it must be done under an AOC, and not just any flying school AOC, it must be a Charter AOC.

 

I'm a commercial pilot and if I go flying somewhere, I need to cost share unless the above conditions have been satisfied.

 

Cost sharing means just that - equal shares. You must pay the same amount as your passenger.

 

You may think you are providing your "services" for free but the truth is you are not a commercial pilot so you don't meet the minimum requirements for charter flights - and you are the one gaining freee hours/experience and putting that in your log book.

 

Sorry to be blunt Tomo, but if you are not paying an equal shares of the cost you are conducting illegal charter flights.

 

By the way David, if a flight has a timetable it is more than commercial, it is an RPT flight!

 

 

[Tomo]

No need to be sorry Mazda, I don't intend to shoot the messenger

 

At least you have some definite answer. Thanks

 

So would it be classified as "illegal" when the pilot pays for it all, and the passenger is just there.... I never charge my family and certain close friends to pay anything towards it, if they want to come, they can. That isn't illegal is it?

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

So would it be classified as "illegal" when the pilot pays for it all, and the passenger is just there.... I never charge my family and certain close friends to pay anything towards it, if they want to come, they can. That isn't illegal is it?

Why/how could that be illegal?

 

 

[Tomo]

Why/how could that be illegal?

I know it's going from one extreme to the other but...

 

# If someone hires the aircraft and you offer your flying services for free, that is a commercial operation.# I need to cost share unless the above conditions have been satisfied.

 

# Cost sharing means just that - equal shares. You must pay the same amount as your passenger.

 

# But if you are not paying an equal shares of the cost you are conducting illegal charter flights.

If the above is correct, the pilot paying the whole fee is also conducting illegal ops??

 

 

[Powerin]

So would it be classified as "illegal" when the pilot pays for it all, and the passenger is just there.... I never charge my family and certain close friends to pay anything towards it, if they want to come, they can. That isn't illegal is it?

Tomo,

 

One section of the regs hasn't been quoted here. It's a private flight if it's for:

 

"the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;"

 

...which I interpret to mean it's OK to carry people or freight for free.

 

Darks, would you interpret the last bit as you can carry goods that you are going to sell as long as the goods are owned by you (the pilot), the hirer or owner of the aircraft, or does it mean you can't? Or does it mean you can charge to carry those goods?

 

Peter

 

 

[Tomo]

I guess it's all how you read the rules, they are so ................. not set out in black and white!

 

If you state that you have to share costs, or it's an illegal operation. Well the pilot paying the lot is also doing illegal operations. Ironic, but that's how that statement comes across.

 

An owner offering his aircraft to you for free - does that make it an illegal operation? You can't imagine so.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Maybe it would be better to just read the relevant section of the VFRG (Section 1, Pages numbered 11,12 titled Pilot Responsibilities. Goto Page 20 in the PDF), as it sets out the rules about Commercial vs Private, from the private pilot's perspective relatively simply and all together in one place.

 

If you want to look at commercial operations, it is not covered in the VFRG (specifically excluded as out of scope for the document).

 

IMHO it is only when people start trying to look at how they can get around these simple criteria and start inventing elaborate indirect arrangements that the interpretation becomes cloudy and you need to refer back to the legislation.

 

Basically, anything you would do privately for yourself you can do unless, like dropping things from an aircraft, it is covered in separate provisions. If you want to make a private cost sharing arrangement with a passenger, whom you privately invite to have a flight with you, then it must be on an equal contribution basis.

 

As soon as you are looking at doing something for or on behalf of someone else, or for the benefit of a business, then you need to examine the rules more closely to see if it falls outside the definition of "private use". If it does, you cannot legally do it.

 

Commercial is reasonably simply defined by omission. In other words anything not permitted as "private use" is commercial.

 

In the raffle example quoted in another thread, it is not "private use" because:-

 

1. The raffle is publicly advertised.

 

2. The organiser of the raffle gets a benefit from the payment, and that payment is required in order to take the flight. In other words the payment is not solely the cost share.

 

Either principle in isolation is outside "private use".

 

Under these two principles, it is still not "private use", even if the participants in the raffle did not know that a flight is one of the prizes. Their eligibility required a payment that falls foul of these two principles.

 

 

[ahlocks]

IMHO it is only when people start trying to look at how they can get around these simple criteria and start inventing elaborate indirect arrangements that the interpretation becomes cloudy and you need to refer back to the legislation.

And it's a wonderfully accurate opinion that you have.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Private Flight

 

"the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made

 

 

other than [i.e. not allowed]

 

the carriage,

 

for the purposes of trade,

 

of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;"

 

 

A private flight is clearly defined above [the cost sharing exemption complicates it slightly but keep in mind the way private flight is defined when considering the intent of cost sharing.]

 

The carriage of your own property for the purpose of trade is outside the definition of a private flight.

 

[i didn’t invent the definition but that is what is says]

 

 

Frank

 

 

[sseeker]

Frank,

 

Would that include the delivery of an RA-Aus aircraft to the purchaser?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[frank marriott]

I just broke up the definition to make it easier to understand.

 

I have a clear opinion in my mind - you may read the definition differently - so be it - as I am not the regulator you have nothing to worry about my opinion [which was the opinion of my instructor when I did my CPL Air Leg.]

 

seeker

 

I don't see your point as you are delivering an aeroplane - as opposed to CARRING goods of trade.

 

Don't get too hung up on this definition word for word as I am sure it is breached on a regular basis - But better to have a clear understanding of the definition when considering what is legal or not.

 

I believe in reading everyone's opinion and the legislation and then froming my own understanding.

 

I have no desire to confuse the matter - to me it reads very clear, even if you don't like the content.

 

cheers

 

Frank

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Frank,

 

There was no 'point' to it, it was a question to you. If someone has purchased an aeroplane off me and I charge them to deliver the aeroplane (just the operating cost) is that considered commercial? Because I know a lot of people do that.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi David,

 

In all of my posts I have referenced the appropriate CAR/CAO and most of the content in posts has been repeated. So you'll be able to see where the info came from if you reference the start of the thread.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[AerospaceTechnology]

Legal or Illegal

 

It’s hard to determine what is legal or illegal these days since judges want to be a law on their own. One way to check flight cost sharing notices is to research whether any case is heard, and see what the outcome had been, but considering that judges in general, don’t have integrity, you wouldn’t know what the outcome could be in a new case. ‘Judge’ Bill Everson instructed a jury to disregard a fact of murder and told them only to consider whether the murderer has done anything to harm her self. …………….. Sick Sad World ……. and seems to be getting worse.

 

 

[frank marriott]

sseeker

 

I don't see a problem with that - but my advice is worth what you pay for it - nothing - just my take on the matter.

 

If you want an "INFORMED" answer then you would have to go to a suitably qualifed person.

 

I just couldn't help putting in my two bobs worth.

 

Frank

 

 

[sseeker]

Frank,

 

I was asking your personal opinion on the matter, I understand what your advice is worth and who to contact on the matter. I thought the whole point of a forum was to discuss puzzling topics like this? Maybe I thought wrong...

 

-Andrew

 

 

[numptie]

I read an article (I think in the Sept/Oct Australian Flying) that was talking about tax liablilities and legalities of pilots claiming use of their aircraft. It didn't go into great detail and I can't remember if it quoted any CARs/CAOs but what I gathered from it was that you could use your aircraft to ferry your equipment around, (eg if you were a tradie going to a farm to fix some equipment, you could carry your tools etc) but if you were carrying goods to sell that would be illegal (selling goods seemed to include taking any parts you would need to fix said farm equipment). If anyone has a copy of the mag have a look, it might help clear things up . . . or maybe not, but worth reading.

 

Bob

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have the article-Hopefully this will clear some things up.The is written by Steve Hitchen- i am only going to quote a little bit of it because of copy write.

 

"A PPL holder can transport goods owned by that person or that persons employer from A to B, provided there is no remuneration paid for the flight by some other person.What the PPL holder's employer does with the goods at B after the flight has occured is not relevant to the characteristics of the flight.

 

Carrying other company officers is OK, as they are tools of the trade.However carrying spare parts for machinery is a bit unclear, CASA say;

 

It is possible this could be treated as a CAR 206(1)(b)(i) commercial operation, namely 'carriage of cargo for hire or reward to or from a place', if there is a pre-existing agreement that the cargo carried will be sold to the person or company requesting the spare parts or machinery for a contract price that included the price of the goods, their installation or use and the transport of those goods from A to B" end quote.

 

 

[Tomo]

Jo blow rang you up and asked you to bring him some freight (ie, stuff) and he pays you for it. That I see as commercial operations, as it is the same as him ringing the local freight company and asking the same thing.

 

You carry your own tools, and whatever parts you think you may require for that job:

 

For example - If I was called into check a problem with the hydraulics on a dump truck, I would take a kit of 0-rings with me. If I use them, I charge the company whatever the price of that item. That I don't see as a commercial operation.

 

Obviously the regs have the last say, and I haven't quoted them, so don't take my word for it. Just some thoughts.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hey Dazza,Could you scan the article and send it to my private email please, I don't have a copy of this magazine.

David

Hi mate i dont have a scanner on this computor, even then, i dont know how to send it even if i did have one.lol.I will PM you.

 

 

[ahlocks]

..You carry your own tools, and whatever parts you think you may require for that job

For the princely sum of 25 cents, I telephoned CASA yesterday arvo and was put through to a learned chap to whom I posed a hypothetical scenario of a non specific tradesperson flying to a nearby town to beat the krap out of an unidentified automotive security device to make it start working again.

 

I asked that, if said anonymous tradesperson took his tools of trade and appropriate spare parts for the repair or replacement of that imaginary defective product, would that be a private or commercial op?

 

Dan's first response was "would you be carrying any dangerous goods?" to which I took as a sign that he might be seeing through the ruse (and possibly heard of the Toyota Soarer technique that involves kerosene and a box of matches.) and to be fairly indicative of the area of concern that CASA was primarily going to have.

 

He then continued to state that the method of how a tradesperson chooses to transport their tools, replacement parts and themselves to a job was of no concern to CASA as it was a private matter, provided that charging a specific fee for the use an aircraft was not made.

 

He went on to discuss that CASA are more interested in catching out punters that have set themselves up as 'Dodgey Dave's Discount Air Freight' or 'Cecil Planes non scheduled air taxi service' than monstering some bush mechanic that flies out to do a job somewhere. :big_grin:

 

Of course take of that what you will as it's not in writing from CASA (Dan has promised to follow it up and send something official to show if 'ramped'), but the next time some box of snot's ignition jambs up somewhere near an airfield on a nice day.....

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...Dan's first response was "would you be carrying any dangerous goods?"...

Seems eminently sensible, as not everyone may think through what constitutes dangerous goods.So better not take seat belt pre-tensioners, air bag assemblies, hydrocarbon based degreaser, gas operated soldering irons or similar.

 

Actually, even taking dangerous goods by road involves a lot of paperwork and differs by state, so multiply the paperwork by the number of state / territory borders crossed.

 

Just to throw another curly question....

 

If the spares are owned by the tradesperson (ie his own business), then he'd be selling them and it would appear commercial, but if the spares are owned by a company for which the person works, then the transaction is not between the client and the Pilot, who receives no payment for transporting the spares.

 

Thus if the tradesperson has a company as opposed to a business, it is still a transaction between the client and the company, for whom the tradesperson works as an employee, but also owns.

 

It appears that there's many shades of grey in this (and I'm not referring to my age). Spares are incidental to the job, whereas "goods" are products for sale!

 

I'm glad I don't contemplate doing any of this and trying to figure it out for real i_dunno

 

 

[eightyknots]

Some other dangerous goods carried on planes:

 

lead-acid batteries

 

avgas or mogas

 

ballistica (rocket-powered) parachutes