DrZoos Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 My jab is going really well! I am really happy with it, it's a great airframe ( world class), low maintenance, strong etc, and the rotax just goes so nicely in it. Compared to a C172, it will lift more weight, climbs much better, cruises faster with 1/2 the fuel burn! What more could you want? Tom My thoughts exactly...what a shame they cant be factory produced, i reckon they would outsell everything including and become the gold standard trainer for both RAA and GA flight schools cross the world... Its a crazy concept that they have at least trialed it in some market against the jab option and then looked at the volumes and margins Now that the "915 is" will become available, that and a J230/400 are a match made in heaven.If only one company was not such short sighted...... That would be one amazingly capable machine 10 knots quicker, a lot better short field performance and insignificantly heavier...Imagine the remote farmers, businesses and even passenger transport options if you could register one of these as certified GA with a rotax in it.... This would make most 172 and 152 worthless overnight, because the fuel savings in commercial applications would be too big to ignore. Infact I wonder fi Cessna themselves might take on one of these engines in the near future. It would certainly provide a benefit of new v old. The biggest problem I see is that i think every one would go the rotax, eliminating yet another aviation engine and allowing Rotax to charge even higher than high prices. We really do get severely ripped off when you think of their scales and costs... Consider that an entire japanese car with similar engine size is around half the cost... It surprises me that one of the japanese manufacturers has not entered the market with the margins that are on offer, compared the the thin margins on cars. Clearly volumes are tiny, but with margins like Rotax has its surely only a matter of time till one of the Jap brands has a crack at it. And with the global military drone market booming, using these types of engines, now is the time to enter. 1
jetjr Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 A nice combo no doubt but the 914 or 915 will place the aircraft into a crowded $140K market, mainly factory built LSA of very high standards. 10kts quicker is headed towards a problem with Vne just 20kts above current cruise speed and manouver speeds at 96 (24kts BELOW cruise) anyway Not sure youd get it without IFA prop and that adds even more $$ and weight. Margins are one thing, volume is another. See what Bex can deliver.
Downunder Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 It surprises me that one of the japanese manufacturers has not entered the market with the margins that are on offer, compared the the thin margins on cars. Clearly volumes are tiny, but with margins like Rotax has its surely only a matter of time till one of the Jap brands has a crack at it. And with the global military drone market booming, using these types of engines, now is the time to enter. I'm pretty baffled too. Someone like Honda with the bikes and cars technology and data they have, could probably build and simulate on a computer in a very short period a Rotax beating engine. I have a mental picture of a Rotax board meeting. Chairman stands up " What do ya reckon fellas, bump the price of our aero engines again?". Board bursts out laughing, nodding their heads. Someone shouts " Yeah and double that for the spare parts!!". "OK, bump it 5% and 10% on the spares, now who's shout at the pub?" They all file off laughing that no matter how high the price, people still pay................ 1
Downunder Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Perhaps what is required, is a 3rd party company purchasing Jabiru kits and mating the 915 or whatever to the completed aircraft. Possibly viable in the right country?
SDQDI Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 A nice combo no doubt but the 914 or 915 will place the aircraft into a crowded $140K market, mainly factory built LSA of very high standards.10kts quicker is headed towards a problem with Vne just 20kts above current cruise speed and manouver speeds at 96 (24kts BELOW cruise) anyway Not sure youd get it without IFA prop and that adds even more $$ and weight. Margins are one thing, volume is another. See what Bex can deliver. Only the 230 would be up around the 140 mark but surely schools would love a 160 or 170 size which going off jabs price list and not removing anything for their motor (not saying it's worthless, just saying I havnt deducted anything from the price) would end up around 120-130. Those sums are fairly conservative I would think the money saved from the jab engine would lower the price a bit more than that or you could option it up to that (options can add up quick!)
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Perhaps what is required, is a 3rd party company purchasing Jabiru kits and mating the 915 or whatever to the completed aircraft.Possibly viable in the right country? Jab would never supply them airframes.
Downunder Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Out of spite? Jabiru know how awsome they would be!!
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 out of necessity: those engine rebuilds are the bread and butter of the Jabiru business model. 1 1
Downunder Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Meaning funny, but true.....and don't forget the weekly SB and compulsory upgrade on top.
jetjr Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Like most service sides of business id say it makes very little and carries big headaches. Unless Jab themselves are on board it wont be able to be used for trainng and just experimental and you can do the swap now Very few do 1
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 only if they have to replace the engine under warranty
DrZoos Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Like most service sides of business id say it makes very little and carries big headaches.Unless Jab themselves are on board it wont be able to be used for trainng and just experimental and you can do the swap now Very few do Most businesses I know that sell and service make far more off the servicing and parts.. Yeh the point i was hoping was that Jabiru factory would get behind a Jabirotax...but i can see why he wont...however if CASA doesnt get off his case, he might have no choice going forward. Problem is once that happens i think we can almost guarauntee a rapid and continual rise in the cost of rotax engines and parts
fly_tornado Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 fixing a dodgy engine gives Jab a second bite at the cherry, it's a large part of why they have been able to survive when most Australian aircraft manufacturers have failed. 1
frank marriott Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Yeh the point i was hoping was that Jabiru factory would get behind a Jabirota Maybe not as popular idea as some on this site think.......Many, myself included, are not interested in the Rotax engine in the slightest, and quite happy with our current engines. The CASA BS, and those who pushed for it, well that's another matter but I'll reserve my comments on that matter, at this stage anyway. 1
facthunter Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Jabiru have explained in detail why they didn't, and it makes a lot of sense. Nev
DrZoos Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Jabiru have explained in detail why they didn't, and it makes a lot of sense. Nev As Pauline would say "Please explaaaaiiiin"
facthunter Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 It was available recently "6 months or so) and on this site by link. I don't have the link.( Oscar may) Explained the history and the reasoning. The Jabiru motor is very light weight, and they didn't want to be dependent on another engine manufacturer, like they were with the KFM. Nev
Downunder Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 90% of other LSA manufacturers seem to be ok with their engine manufacturer. KFM saga was in 1991....... Jabiru still haven't got over it ? 1 1 1
DrZoos Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Agree but if there are no other manufacturers we may have 90% unimpressed because Rotax start charging $40K per 912ULS Monopoly = bad Competition = good Overheating and other issues = bad Future = ??? so lets be careful what we say 1
pylon500 Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Meanwhile, back at the 'Firewall forward' thread, there is a Rotax Service agent, with manufacturing capability, that has done one conversion with another coming. This was a J230 fitted with a standard 912ULs and 3 blade Sensenich ground adjustable prop. Depending on pitch setting, cruise speed is similar or could be a little faster, but the real improvement is awesome climb rate and about 15% better fuel economy. Wasn't game to ask the conversion price, but the customer was quite happy. 2 1 2
DrZoos Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 The more the merrier, but if Jabiru with its resources, people and history cant get it right in this amount of time what chance does bex have on the balance of probabilites. Only way a new manufacturer will come in is with some serious cash to burn on development and testing prior to selling one unit, rather than trying to sell prior to development and testing. Iron all the major creases and problems out before achieing any scale or vloumes of both revenu and problems.
DrZoos Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 In basic marketing circles, there is a matrix of market demand with four segments rainging from cash cow with high volume and margins , mass market down to hobby which has low margins and volume... Most new aircraft engines firmly fit into hobby category with low margins and volumes. rotax might have migrated to low volumes and high margins but any effort froma new manufacturer will take years or decades in aviation to achieve enough confidence to do so. This is one reason aviation has so few new successful entrants, so few new lasting names and so little growth....the odds are firmly stacked against any aviation engine or airframe manufacturer unless they can achieve either high margins or volumes or both...and in aviation volumes are limited...so margins become super critical New entrants may come in, but before they can overcome huge doubts in regards to durabilty and safety they will need to prove themeselves to the market, not just make claims and list features.... Lists of features do not sell, customer benefits do...and benefits require social proof , a track record and customer testimonials to actually sell. the more expensive the product, the more proof, history and testimonials required to achieve sales. ....... Bex or any new entrant needs to have deep enough pockets not only to design the thing , but also to establish its credibility at thier own expense, not at the risk of customers.... The biggest thing Bex could do is reverse the risk, so that he carries it and accellerate the process of testing, refferrals and social proof. Ie, supply the engines to people who will pike huge hours on the engine and become raving fans of its oerformance and reliability
jetjr Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Looks like a nice conversion, beautifully done. The cost of conversion is a pretty big factor though. I do have issues with info that 100hp can be faster and maintain climb performance without IFA prop especially with 600kg. You cant have both, the actual setting will be a compromise and performance at this setting is whats important. No other 912 LSA can get near this Ive seen, most top out around 100kts which is well short of J230 normal performance. Now moved to experimental, you could fit Adjustable 3 blade prop to original engine and get some better performance too.
facthunter Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 I personally would not advocate fitting an in flight adjustable prop to a Jab. I don't think I would be alone there. Nev 2
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now