11900 ft

[Mazda]

Frank you did a good job keeping control in that soup. The biggest concerns as far as I'm concerned would be separation from IFR aircraft (but if you had Scottish ATC looking after you they should have been able to provide separation) and freezing level/airframe icing/no pitot heat. I'd love to know how much time you have under the hood, whatever time you had on instruments probably saved you!

 

My view is that the decision to 'scud run' under the clouds probably wasn't the wisest but you recognised the dangers and climbed to keep away from terrain. Good move. Our terrain here is pretty flat, but even so it is higher than yours so my first thought would be to get above lowest safe. Scud running kills people, losing control in IMC also kills people.

 

That sure was a thick cloud layer, but I can't comment too much on how normal that is in your neck of the woods. If Sharp End pops in some time he might be able to offer suggestions there, he spent many years flying around that region making lots of noise and scaring the locals.

 

Here in Oz we are not permitted to fly above 10,000 ft without oxygen, but in the US they can cruise up to 12,500 and can go higher for short periods of time so I don't think you will suffer any ill-effects!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

IIRC the transition altitude in the UK is 3000' but cruising levels above that aren't mandatory for VFR traffic

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[kgwilson]

I didn't see this thread when it was first started. I don't think very many pilots would try this if there were other alternatives like turning around. Probably that option was in Franks mind but by the time he may have thought to do it, it was too late. I have had a similar experience and with 3 pax on a 1 hour work run. I'd got all the forecasts, got a current destination weather report by phone, logged my sartime & was flying a regular route in a fully IFR equipped PA28-181. At the time I'd not done my IFR training though.

 

I was flying at about 3500 feet under scattered cloud starting at about 2 Octas. 30 mins into the flight the ceiling was 8 Octas and there was another layer about 1000" below about 2 Octas. It began to thicken so I went down. The base though was much lower than I thought it would be & the tops of the hills were in cloud. I found myself in a valley. There was a dairy farm there but it was all hill country. I flew right around the valley & decided that was it, we were going home. The only problem was that I couldn't find a hole to fly up through so decided to go up through the cloud on my original heading. Came out at just over 10,000' into the blue. Called ATC & advised my predicament. Got down on the other side of what was a cold front overtaking a warm front some 12 hours earlier than forecast.

 

I should have turned around much earlier so made a poor decision to continue by going under the lower layer on my destination heading. Once I'd got in the excrement I had no other option but to go up through the cloud. I just kept saying to myself "Believe the Instruments" while sweating profusely and occasionally chatting to my pax.

 

This is a summary of what was the scariest flight of my life.

 

 

[Floatplane]

frankmcm, you're right about one thing....It was a stupid thing to do and you should be more careful in future or stay on the ground.

Totally agree, it was stupid & very dangerous thing to do! Appreciate honesty but!!

 

I flew the Air Ambulance (RFDS) around Oz, we operate in & out of strips day & night in all sorts of weather right down to the minim cloud base - we fly into the same airstrips " you do" you were putting "others in serious danger"

 

Glad you lived through this, be mindful there wasn't a Super Kingair carrying patients needing medical help coming at you! Your playing a very serious game and wonder why Rec Pilots get a bad name!

 

FP

 

 

[Guernsey]

Your playing a very serious game and wonder why Rec Pilots get a bad name!

FP

Many GA pilots have taken similar dangerous actions it is not confined to Rec Pilots.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Tex]

I flew the Air Ambulance (RFDS) around Oz, we operate in & out of strips day & night in all sorts of weather right down to the minim cloud base - we fly into the same airstrips " you do" you were putting "others in serious danger"

FP

The RFDS do jobs in Scotland too? I need to donate more money.

 

 

[Floatplane]

Many GA pilots have taken similar dangerous actions it is not confined to Rec Pilots.Alan.

Difference is, "most have had formal training" unlike you guys!

 

 

 

[Floatplane]

The RFDS do jobs in Scotland too? I need to donate more money.

Funny aren't you!

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's a pity there aren't more warnings about this but most of the participants died.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Many GA pilots have taken similar dangerous actions it is not confined to Rec Pilots.

Difference is, "most have had formal training" unlike you guys!

There's a formal training course in dangerous actions?!

 

 

[Guest Redflags]

Difference is, "most have had formal training" unlike you guys!

Hi all

 

I totally agree with FP and DM! I hold both lic's and this sort of attitude is demostrated weekly! I see guys not even using radios "yes even Rec Instructors" don't bother yet when you approach the airfield doing either 200kts or even 80kts in my homebuilt you have near misses! It's like the Rec Pilot doesn't care OR doesn't know the rules!

 

As an ex FOI (Flt Ops Inspector with CASA) I'm stunned this guy continued to fly in bad weather! did he even consider for a moment you might be head to head with a Dash 8-400 with 80 soles onboard! what about a B737-800 with over 160 passengers and crew? your tiny rag and tube will bring these birds down or are you that silly you think not?

 

I hope this Safety Breach gets CASA's attention, this is absolutely a crasy attitude to have, yet some seem quite proud of it? :baldy:

 

Redflags

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good points Redflag, with one exception, radio drop kicks are not confined to RA, its bad/dumb behaviour regardless of who is doing it that we need to get after.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I hope this Safety Breach gets CASA's attention, this is absolutely a crasy attitude to have, yet some seem quite proud of it?

I wonder if it's more of a case of couple of 'formally trained' punters copping a windup over a demonstrated deficiency in reading and comprehension. .....

 

 

[jetjr]

Original post is nearly 12 months ago, I think he is in another country and the whole point is he screwed up and lived to tell the story and had the guts to tell it here so others can learn. No one made excuses for his actions

 

Floatplane Im not sure where you get the idea RAA pilots cant read NOTAMS, or that GA pilots play by the rules more than RA and as for poor radio calls and techniques this is evenly spread accross licence types even RPT.

 

GA training isnt nearly as "strict" as many in GA profess and currency has far more to do with it. IFR pilots should make less mistakes, theyve done many more hours and most likely more current but they were a low hour punter once too.

 

There are some incredibly stupid things done by pilots from both camps in most instances they live and sometimes realise what they did wrong and relay thier experiences to others.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

"You shouldn't get too much carby ice with the throttle wide open climbing through it."

 

Not sure I agree with that statement.

 

I would agree if you said not too much Throttle Icing in the carby but in cloud at 10000 ft in Scotland I would suspect the risk of Impact Carb Icing would be very high as would the risk of Fuel Carb Icing. The ambient temp I would have suspected would have been quite low and the latter 2 types of carb ice are more temp and humidity dependant.

 

 

[Floatplane]

Original post is nearly 12 months ago, I think he is in another country and the whole point is he screwed up and lived to tell the story and had the guts to tell it here so others can learn. No one made excuses for his actionsFloatplane Im not sure where you get the idea RAA pilots cant read NOTAMS, or that GA pilots play by the rules more than RA and as for poor radio calls and techniques this is evenly spread accross licence types even RPT.

GA training isnt nearly as "strict" as many in GA profess and currency has far more to do with it. IFR pilots should make less mistakes, theyve done many more hours and most likely more current but they were a low hour punter once too.

 

There are some incredibly stupid things done by pilots from both camps in most instances they live and sometimes realise what they did wrong and relay thier experiences to others.

totally agree :thumb_up:

 

FP

 

 

[Tomo]

totally agree :thumb_up:

Phew!

 

 

[Guernsey]

totally agree :thumb_up:FP

Being Ga trained in Europe and Australia and also RAA trained in Australia I was just about to write a four page reply!!!

No need to do it now.....thanks Floatplane.:thumb_up:

 

Alan.

 

 

[frankmcm]

Original post is nearly 12 months ago, I think he is in another country and the whole point is he screwed up and lived to tell the story and had the guts to tell it here so others can learn. No one made excuses for his actions.

Just returned from darkest Africa, and surprised to find this thread alive....

 

No excuses, just an effort to reinforce the safety issues that I failed to take sufficient account of. I have had plenty of advice on the subject since the episode, so I'm no longer as sensitive as I was.... I would like to think that I am not the only one to benefit from this learning experience.

 

I am a lot more cautious now.... On a recent outing I had to make 2 weather diverts, and in the same area where I had my problem with cloud I spent a whole day trying to get past a weather system before succeeding on the 4th attempt. On that event I logged 36 hours in 7 days, making around 25 landings.

 

There are plenty of exemplary pilots out there; those who never make mistakes. But not every pilot is so perfect, and a short browse through the literature on aircraft accidents will reveal a fair number of poor decisions in experienced pilots. And despite every effort, there will continue to be poor decisions.

 

One way of increasing awareness is to encourage reporting of mistakes...., but this can be a painful process, after all who likes to admit that they cocked up?. Any reaction which increases the pain will discourage reporting, and with it the learning.

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

I've just read through this entire thread. Glad you made it through the cloud and lived to fly another day. Glad you posted the original post to give people a chance to vent their spleen.

 

I have to ask though? Are you an RAA pilot (Ultralight) or a GA pilot? You listed the aircraft as a 450UL - the only info I could find on a 450 is that it's a 4 seater (so not an Ultralight). Is a UL a 450 restricted to 2 seats?

 

There's a few "You typical dangerous RAA pilot" type of posts above. That kind of thing disgusts me. Like when I was talking to a Piper pilot from our local airfield who said to me "I fly real planes, not ultralights". I had a 2 word response to that running through my head - the second word was "You".

 

It seems to me that just because this thread mentions a Jabiru, and it's posted on an Australian web site that all sort of assumptions have been made. He mentions that he's in Scotland yet people are still going on about RAA rules this and RAA rules that - HE WAS IN SCOTLAND...

 

On Monday I saw a pilot do a U-Turn to back track on the operational Runway while an aircraft was coming in to land (rather than just turn left on the Alt runway). I also had a pilot line me up, and not respond to radio calls while I was flying in the Training area (I was at their 12 o'clock). Both of those pilots were GA pilots. Both of these pilots will one day either end up flying you to your next holiday in a 747, or they'll end up dead - hopefully I'm not their victim.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Pookemon, I wouldnt worry too much about the "I fly real planes, not ultralights"i have heard that saying more times than i care to remember especially back in the day when rag and tube type aircraft where the only aircraft around .He is missing out on flying some great aeroplanes.Bad luck to him.

 

 

[robinsm]

So can anyone tell me what a real plane, and formal training are. I have my ppl exams, 300hrs in ultralights, cross country etc etc. So that makes me an untrained toy pusher (Is it that real planes actually leave the ground?)

 

 

[turboplanner]

So can anyone tell me what a real plane, and formal training are. I have my ppl exams, 300hrs in ultralights, cross country etc etc. So that makes me an untrained toy pusher (Is it that real planes actually leave the ground?)

Don't worry, the guy was probably feeling threatened. The more you talk to GA pilots and the more you educate them, the more members we get. Only this week I saw a post (maybe Leadsled) indicating the average GA private pilot gets in about 10 hours a year.

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

Your lucky your still alive to make sure you don't do it again.

 

 

[Tomo]

. Only this week I saw a post (maybe Leadsled) indicating the average GA private pilot gets in about 10 hours a year.

I know quite a few that only do about 10 - 20 a year. I've done almost a 100 a year since I've started flying.