Turning back - do you or don't you.

[Ultralights]

To Turn back or not? (split from Gympie incident thread)

 

Do you crash straight ahead and deliberately break your aeroplane or turn back?

that should not even be a question, you NEVER turn back, the chances of surviving if you turn back are very slim indeed, and quite a few very experienced pilots have been lost doing just that, land straight ahead, or 30 deg turn MAX, an aircraft can be rebuilt, or a new one bought..

 

 

[Spin]

"NEVER turn back?" Good general advice, but there are circumstances where it would be preferable to exceed the 30 or 45 degree deviation from straight ahead which is generally accepted as correct. My GA instructor demonstrated that with the 2 of us in a C150, a turnback was unlikely to succeed on a warm day, however much to my surprise, once I began flying RA, at about 800' agl on crosswind, I was able to turn the Tecnam through about 210 degrees left to maintain some distance upwind of the threshold and back through another 120 degrees right to line up and land downwind - this on my first attempt. I very much suspect that at 500' agl on the upwind leg, there is every chance that one of the modern, slick RA aircraft will reliably manage the turn back, something I want to try next time I get an instructor into an aircraft.

 

Of course the mere fact that it may be possible doesn't make it the right choice in many circumstances, but some of the accepted wisdom in flying has not kept pace with the reality of the performance of the aircraft many of us fly. The kind of circumstances which would make me consider a 180 + degree turn back would be large timber or a built up area in an arc ahead.

 

I remember reading a piece by Alan Bramson in the UK based Pilot magazine which proved that in competent hands even many high performance GA aircraft are also capable of making the turn back. As I recall it, he tested a variety of bank angles and speeds, concluding that 45 degrees bank at best glide plus an allowance for the increased stall speed, gave him the best chance of landing successfully back on the runway.

 

Edit: I see David got in first whilst I was waffling

 

 

[farri]

To turn back or not to turn back?

 

I don`t believe in applying the "one fits all ", methodology for every situation, I believe in doing what is required for what is occurring at that precise moment.

 

I also believe that before making the broad statement, “Never turn back “,the first thing to identify is the type of aircraft we`re talking about, even if we`re only talking about RAA aircraft, there are many different types these days and they don`t all have the same performance characteristics.

 

There`s the atmospheric conditions occurring at the time..... How strong is the wind,what direction is it coming from,you wont get the same performance with any AC on a stinking hot midday, with low barometric pressure, as you would on a cool morning with high pressure.

 

There`s the skill of the pilot.....Not everyone’s is the same, it is extremely important to be true to ones self , recognize ones true ability and not exceed it.

 

Then there`s the field being used..... Ahead or 30 degrees either side may not be suitable, If taking off from a busy field, turning back could put you in the path of a departing AC and cause a collision.

 

I`ve flown 10 different types of Ultralights but instructed in the Austflight Maxair WB Drifter, so I`ll only talk about the Drifter.

 

I taught how to position the AC on the up wind leg so that the maximum advantage was gained to allow a safe turn back, demonstrated the altitude and position relative to the strip, where, if the engine failed on take off, a turn back was able to be carried out and where it would it would kill you, if you attempted it.

 

I am aware of at least one of my students who was saved, by turning back, when his engine failed in his Drifter, on take off at a fly in , try telling him it was the wrong thing to do.

 

Finally, it goes without saying, that I feel so sorry for everyone involved, every time that there is an accident, I wish there were none, so please everyone, try and make the right decisions before going flying then once in the air.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

discussion of this.

 

IF you want to discuss this turn back business, it can be done (discuss it) but you would want to make sure that it was comprehensively and correctly done so as to not give people information that would encourage it. I think that to open a new thread would be the way to go and there is no hurry to initiate that. A lot of pilots have been killed or severely injured attempting it, and that is the unpleasant truth of the matter.

 

The biggest problem is loss of height and stalling in the turn, and you are going to be landing downwind . IF the wind is strong and you muck it up you will be going a lot faster than if you landed into wind , so a small turn into wind is what I advise generally, at lower heights.

 

Do we start a new thread? Get some experts to come on. There has been quite a bit of research done over the years. Nev...

 

 

[Spin]

Nev correctly pointed out that this deserves a thread all of its own, so here it is;

 

In the event of an engine failure after take off, do you adhere to the conventional wisdom that "you never turn back", restricting any turns to within 30 or 45 degrees of straight ahead or do you consider that in certain circumstances it is justified to attempt a 180 turn and land downwind?

 

Mods: Would it be possible to move or copy the last 6 or so responses form the "Spitfire down at Gympie" thread, to here?

 

Relevant posts have been merged into this thread - Mod

 

 

[Chird65]

With all of the usual disclaimers: (I’m not current, have never tried this, and would follow the RAA advice on turning back)

 

If you want a video of some of these scenarios please see the attached video.

 

Aerobatics in California

 

regards

 

Chris

 

 

[Spin]

Good find Chird65, that made interesting viewing.

 

 

[Bandit12]

When I was first learning to fly, I watched one of my instructors turn back for a forced landing after takeoff. He was doing a joyflight in a Boeing Stearman, which had been recently restored. Very professional and highly experienced pilot, with a lot of aerobatics competition time behind him.

 

He managed to put it down, saving himself and the passenger from major injuries, and the Stearman was damaged to about half it's value. The impact on landing due to the high sink rate caused a deceleration of about 17G apparently. In his words, it was either make the turn or hit the buildings as there was nowhere else to go in that particular case. He made it to the grass beside the runway.

 

Would I do it? I don't know but I have been conditioned not to. If I had enough time to weigh options, I possibly would.

 

 

[Spin]

That's interesting in about the Drifter, Frank. I don't have any LP experience (yet) but I sort of took it for granted that a slick machine with a better glide ratio, would have a greater chance of making it.

 

 

[farri]

Spin, after 25 years, I`m still amazed by what can be done with a good Drifter,The pilot just has to know how.

 

From memory,the first question my CFI asked me when he was testing me for my instructor rating,was, " Would you turn back to the strip if the engine failed on take off".

 

My reply was, " You havn`t given me my position,distance or height relative to the strip", he accepted this answer.

 

I want everyone to understand that I`m not recommending that they do anything other than what their instructor/instructors,have taught them.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Video Conclusions.

 

The essential principles are as stated. A small amount of bank is not the way to go. The turn takes too long so even though the sink rate is the least you end up using more height. "Dirty" or draggy aircraft are even worse.

 

You do have to do a steep turn to lose minimum height in this exercise. How many of you could, without much hesitation go straight into a steep gliding turn, because this is what is required and you have to be sure that you can get back, or it is for nothing.

 

There are other ways of doing a minimum height loss course reversal but I'm not even going to go there.

 

Most of the current engine out procedure recommends shallow bank turns and done at minimum speed, ( well best glide speed for weight). That didn't work in the video and it doesn't work in real life either, but we are talking about CHANGING DIRECTION by about 180 degrees, losing minimum height ONLY. The other thing to remember is that when gliding into wind increase your airspeed above best glide to increase range, and IF you are gliding down wind and you want to get a bit further fly BELOW best glide speed by a little bit. nev

 

 

[XP503]

Yes there is a point where you can turn back, just recently at Boonah I got an instructor to jump in the back seat of the Drifter (SB582) and it can definitely be done safely.

 

 

[farri]

How many of you could, without much hesitation go straight into a steep gliding turn,

Nev,I`m glad you brought that question up because it goes back to my previous statement,

 

"There`s the skill of the pilot.....Not everyone’s is the same, it is extremely important to be true to ones self , recognize ones true ability and not exceed it".

 

Does it now follow then that because most who attempt it don`t succeed that there is no chance of success?

 

Try and tell the pilot who has just saved his or her life by doing it, that they should have done something else.

 

I don`t and never have believed in making the safety margins ever larger so as to try and protect every one from themselves, I believe in developing the skills required to do the task.

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I agree with Frank, its not a yes or no question. I think discretion is better than valour. Thats why we teach a baseline minimum, erring on the side of caution. Our pre takeoff safety brief in the jab quotes 800 ft as a minimum height, which should be enough to compensate for a hot day etc. Obviously as pilots become more experienced they can find their own minimum safe height. But, the most important thing (IMHO) is that the pilot briefs himself pre takeoff. Stating a minimum height, accounting for aircraft type, weight, wind etc. An example would be, normally I would attempt to turn back at 500 feet, however today being hot (high strip, extra weight, gusty winds, the list goes on) I will not attempt to turn back below 700 feet. The delay between the music stopping and the pilot reacting would be a massive factor and this unfortunately cant be planned for or known until it happens.

 

 

[Yenn]

I know how high I need to be to be able to turn back safely and it is about 800'. If there was any forewarning of a problem, that figure could be lowered by amending the climbing leg heading by initiating a turn at the first inkling of a problem, but you would be very lucky to get the warning. At my local strip I do not like taking off into the NW, because of trees and nowhere to land, so I climb out turning towards the downwind legfrom about 200' The only time I had a problem was into the SE direction and a cylinder head gasket blew, that was when I used the early turn to help get around. It was the first flight of the plane I had built and I decided to go around as I wasn't happy with my speed and the gaske blew when I gave it full power.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Situational awareness

 

If you require less then 1000ft to take of and you are on an 8000ft runway then you are presented with a whold new ballgame.

 

Generic advice is good but not relevant in every situation.

 

Frank

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Situational awarenessIf you require less then 1000ft to take of and you are on an 8000ft runway then you are presented with a whold new ballgame.

 

Generic advice is good but not relevant in every situation.

 

Frank

That is why I seldom do an intersection departure. Even though I need only about 230m to take off, and my local AD has a kilometre of tarmac. Depending on wind and temperature, I can be at 500'agl by the time I reach the other end of the runway. An EFATO below about 200' and you can land straight ahead on the runway.

I've watched a demo of a turn back from about 300', but I'm certainly not at that skill level yet.

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Great video and all interesting points.

 

Most of us if not all will hopefully never have to be in this situation. In fact most will never have an engine failure during their flying career.

 

When doing the human factors course our instructor said we should always say out loud before each take-off " should the engine fail on take off I will fly straight ahead" to re-inforce not to turn around. Guess it is better to have a controlled crash than an uncontrolled "arrival". The video clearly shows though that given enough height and bank it can be done. The point then should be " at what altitude can I turn back" .

 

Another point raised was if we select a landing site and there is a power line in the path what do we do?

 

Answer: aim for it. If we make it that far we can either fly over or under it. If we don't reach it we would not have made it in any case.

 

flay safe

 

Walter

 

 

[djpacro]

Results of some research done on this by the US Naval Academy in a simulator representing a typical GA trainer:

 

The experiments comprised seven different flights flown by each of 20 different pilots with experience ranging from a student pilot, several CFI's to military pilots with as much as 5000 hours. Only some of the flights are of current interest.In the first flight the pilot did not know that the engine was to fail at 500 feet. No instructions were given to the pilot. Eighty-five per cent of the pilots successfully landed straight ahead. Of the three pilots that turned back, all were private pilots and only one was successful. The other two crashed as a result of a classic stall/spin. These results indicate that standard training procedures are well ingrained.

 

The third flight is of interest. Here the pilots knew that the engine was to fail and at what altitude. They were told to turnback 180 degrees and land the aircraft. No instructions were given on how to fly the maneuver. Less than 45 per cent were successful. Successful flights correlated directly with experience level. More than 85 per cent of the unsuccessful flights were a result of the bank angle exceeding 55 degrees and a subsequent stall/spin.

Of course the pilots got better the more practice they had but even on their seventh flight when all were told to turn back not everyone survived.

In real life you only get one go at it and it will be a surprise so the results of the first flight are significant:

 

• all those who landed straight ahead would have survived
   
   
  
• of those who turned back, 67% would NOT have survived
   
   
  

 

You can read more of the research articles at Prof Rogers

 

 

[farri]

That is why I seldom do an intersection departure. Even though I need only about 230m to take off, and my local AD has a kilometre of tarmac. Depending on wind and temperature, I can be at 500'agl by the time I reach the other end of the runway. An EFATO below about 200' and you can land straight ahead on the runway.I've watched a demo of a turn back from about 300', but I'm certainly not at that skill level yet.

My main strip is 600 mts long and on a good day,with a good head wind,flying solo, using max climb,I can get 500` AGL by the time I leave the end of the strip,in this case if the engine failed at the end of the strip I would end up in my neighbours paddock if I turned back.

 

Normally I`m between 2/3 hundred feet AGL,so anywhere before I turn down wind I can get back on the strip if I have to.

 

With engine failures,I speak from experience,I practise this all the time and I would never just land straight ahead, if I have a better chance in turning back.

 

For the new pilots.

 

In turning back,appart from the skill required to do the down wind turn, the pilot also has to able to carry out a down wind landing,which can be very fast and fast reflexes required,you may run out of landing area,not be able to stop, which could be fatal.

 

In general,Landing straight ahead, or 30 degrees either side is the safest way to go.

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Good advice frank;)

 

 

[eastmeg2]

What we're taught is to remain over the runway centreline and then the extended runway centreline as we take off and climb out.

 

On occasions when I have taken off from airstrips where there are no or limited outlanding opportunities straight ahead for the first several hundred metres after the end of the runway, I have thought it may be better to move off to one side of the runway centreline during climb out (the downwind side if there's a cross wind component), not so far that I couldn't land ahead on the runway if there's still enough ahead, but far enough as I get higher that it would reduce the amount of turning needed to turn back if the noise stopped at 500ft AGL, ie, might only have to turn 160 degrees instead of 200 . . . to get back onto the runway.

 

This would typically be at private strips.

 

Thoughts?i_dunno

 

 

[Exadios]

that should not even be a question, you NEVER turn back, the chances of surviving if you turn back are very slim indeed, and quite a few very experienced pilots have been lost doing just that, land straight ahead, or 30 deg turn MAX, an aircraft can be rebuilt, or a new one bought..

Depends entirely on height and wind. I do a turn back once ever few months and it has not killed me yet.

 

I would not do it at less that 500' AGL or in more than about 5 knots of wind along the run way.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Results of some research done on this by the US Naval Academy in a simulator representing a typical GA trainer:Of course the pilots got better the more practice they had but even on their seventh flight when all were told to turn back not everyone survived. /QUOTE]

Hi DJP

 

I do believe 500' is too low to turn back in anything unless it has a very high glide ratio, low stall and dive brakes (like a Nimbus without water). But at some point in our climb we will have sufficient height to turn downwind and even complete the circuit and I think that's something we all need to consider.

 

I am often at <700+ AGL passing over the upwind boundary of my home field and I'd not be keen on tackling a straight ahead on 17 towards the HT power lines and the hill behind them from that height. There isn't much going for you to the south-east or south-west either, now most of the paddocks have been cut up into horse yards or planted to vines. 35 of course gives many more options more or less straight ahead.

 

So my plan is modified to the extent that if I'm on 17 I think carefully about the effect wind conditions will have in the event I have an engine out above my 700' minimum and decide whether plan B, a turn against circuit direction and FL downwind on the farm next door is the better choice.

 

I have a 15:1 glide ratio and a FE stall of 28 knots. So in theory I can travel horizontally about 2 miles before arriving on the ground at walk-away-from-it speed. Not far, is it? And only half that in a flying brick (C172).

 

I practice steep turns at a much safer height but appreciate there is a stark difference between that and doing it in an emergency close to the ground.

 

It's 25 years since I did any gliding but I've always remembered two rules:

 

1. Speed close to the ground is your friend until you hit it; and
    
    
   
2. Do anything (eg ground loop) rather than run into a wire fence if your aircraft nose is at a lesser height than the top strand.
    
    
   

 

 

 

Final comments -- I lost a dear friend to a stall-spin in a C150A while mustering. He was too low, too slow and it was too hot. Another friend lost his former military and airline pilot dad to a wire fence when his Blanik L13 overran the end of the strip and the top strand penetrated the canopy.

 

regards

 

kaz

[dazza 38]

I think there are to many variables, in the question.It depends on alot.Density altitude, pilot experience in that particular a/c.Pilots experience in general,as mentioned above.I just want to remind people, is that flying level and crashing between two trees and taking the wings off, is safer than a turn gone wrong, and turning into a stall spin situation.IMO

 

But having said that, having it drummed into you that you cant look at alternatives more than 30 degrees either side of your flight path, can be detrimental as well, but not when learning or in experienced, turning back can and does kill people if they get it wrong..Each situation is different, i think.