Turning back - do you or don't you.

[Exadios]

Some schools that has been taught, i have been taught it, but im not current in it.The last i did it a few months ago in the Savage Cub, with a Intructor.Mainly because that particular A/c glides well.Turn back was at about 600 AGL.Heaps of time In that particular A/c to make the turn and line up.BUt it isnt going to be in every aircraft.It is good for experienced guys to practise it.Not students- my reason is that, if they are taught it, in a simulation and are successful, if it happens for real, and maybe they are 50 ft lower, its a very hot day etc.etc.They might have the mindset of , no problem i have been trained in this.So they start there turn, as the come around, they realise SH@#, i am a bit low, i am not around far enough to line up, so they pull back on the stick more to tighten the turn.Then it ends in tears. Stick position is the key as David has said, but im talking about low time pilots.I agree with Motz, i think its best, for them to land straight a head with in 30 degrees either side of their heading. When they have more experience in that particular A/c, then expand on that.90 degrees either side etc.

A turn back is the only emergency landing that can be tested during the takeoff phase - an emergency airstrip generally not being available +-30 deg. ahead.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that a pilot should not go solo until he / she has demonstrated a successful dead stick turn back (and may other things for that matter).

 

 

[farri]

Improving the safety margin.

 

Surely you would have made yourself aware of the geography under your flight path on initial climb? If you have mentally prepared yourself for the possibility of engine failure,these factors would have been taken into account.. Nev

Nev,spot on.

 

I`ve had the privilage of using many places other than an aerodrome,to fly from,I regularly fly in to visit two of the local guys who have their own strip and in both of these cases,if I were to land straight ahead in the event of EFATO,I would be in,( biiiigggg trouble ),in both cases turning back is, not an option.

 

No matter where I take off from, as soon as I`m in the air and have appropriate height,I will maneuver the AC so that I`m pointing into the area that will give me the greatest chance of being able to land saftely,I won`t fly any other way and it hasn`t failed me yet.

 

No one should ever leave the ground before thoroughly assessing the geography of the flight path ahead, making mental preparations and trying to have more than one option.

 

Frank.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I like this thread, its good to throw the ball around and get different opinions and views.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I agree Dazza. Its great to nut these things out.

 

I do hafta clear up one pint. I was not telling exadious not to express his opinion incase a student reads it. I thought I was clear that stating things as "the correct" way when they are clearly NOT is a dangerous thing to do in a public forum where students can get the wrong ideas.

 

Exadious, are you a powered instructor?

 

 

[Ultralights]

i just re-watched the turnback video posted earlier, its interesting to note, in both cases where they did make it back, they were performing steep turns on the stall warning horn or actually at the airframe buffet region of the impending stall.. how comfortable are you doing a steep turns on the stall at low level with no engine.....

 

 

[foxy]

Exadios,

 

im a little bit surprised to not see a response to the post from motz about using 45-50 degree turns as regular turns in the circuit......is there a reason for that??

 

Are you honestly saying that you believe it to be a clever way for students, and indeed even experienced pilots, to fly, by perform steep turns in the circuit?? And lets be honest here, anhything above 30 degree angle of bank, IS classed as a steep turn!

 

i wont go into all the details about speeds and stalling and such, as motz has clearly pointed out how this is affecting the aircraft, but im curious to see if you have an answer for those particular facts on the speed increases in the steep turn, and why you would choose to put yourself into a position being in a steep turn when the engine fails.

 

the one thing any of my students will be able to tell you, is that whatever im teaching them, ill almost ALWAYS use the expression- "always err on the side of caution!". they would easily be able to quote me on that, as it is something i teach, and fly by myself.

 

i would have thought that all pilots would be the same!!

 

Liz

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I agree CFI, whole heartedly. You are an instructor. Do you teach 50 deg angle of bank turns in normal circuits?? Is there an instructor in the world that would say this is "correct"?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Can I have a shot here !.......I have read all posts, on what is always an interesting subject matter. I generally agree with Farris' initial comments, in-as-much as it is pilot experience and aircraft type dependent. I also agree with some of what the rest of you say , and I can see where Motz is coming from also.

 

We do need to differentiate between, low-level turn back (with significant banking), Vs returning to the point of departure from a significant height (600ft+), after a power failure, as the two sceneros can be quite different.

 

The big killer as history has shown, is the low level, banked, turn-back to the airstrip after a power failure, which often results in a fatal, low level stall, or loss of airspeed resulting in an UNCONTROLLED crash.

 

Like Farri I have significent time in Drifters, and I am aware that they can make a safe turn and recover to the airstrip, in the hands of an experienced pilot. My return-to-strip height in the 582 CB Drifter was 400ft agl +, never below, with or without ballast in the back seat. In the right practised hands this is about 100ft more than you actually need in the Drifter. This height would NOT work in many other aircraft !!. And there are many RAA types out there in which I wouldn't even comtemplate an un-powered return under 1000 Ft AGL, or circut altitude. The Drifter by the way sideslips extremly well should you need to get rid of any excess height to put you in somewhere.

 

I am a surviver of a low-level, rapid turn-back manouver attempt, as a rear seat passenger in a Cessna 182. The incident, which destoyed the aircraft, and was fatal for the foward two occupants, was written up in the CASA "Crash comic" at the time (1974/75 ), under the title 'INVITING DISASTER, INVITATION ACCEPTED'.

 

The article shows photos of what was left of the 182Q which killed two of my mates, and almost killed myself and another friend. It was a classic low level, zero power turn back , involving probabily 50 deg+ of bank, which resulted in a rapid, low-level wing stall, and rapid UNCONTROLLED CRASH.

 

It is still a report that is most valid today !!...but unfortunatly the same scenero gets repeated a few times each year.

 

If I was an instructor like Motzartmerv, I would definitly be teaching (as reqd by the RAAus sylabus no doubt) that you continue straight ahead at all times, with minimum if any deviation, and maintain full control of the aircraft, which would result most times in a survivable CONTROLLED CRASH. This is time well spent tightening the belt, and flipping off fuel and electrics to prepare for the inevitable. Under no circumstances would I teach a return to the airport after a power failure, at a low altitude. Aircraft are replacable, your not, and the sport needs the students !!.

 

After about 600ft (again aircraft type dependant!) I feel you are now in a different arena, and I might advocate teaching a safe CONTROLLED return to the airport or other close suitable area, resulting in a CONTROLLED landing.

 

This decision altitude is completely dependent on aircraft type, and pilot level of experience, and I would not even entertain the idea of reversing my flight path, power-off, under say 600 ft. in most aircraft, and ony then if I have considerable experience in the aircraft.

 

A CONTROLLED ARRIVAL IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN AN UNCONTROLLED CRASH !!

 

As Frank mentions, an experienced pilot knows that an engine failure after take-off is always a possibility, and therefore reveiws his best options at the end of the strip, just prior to bringing up take-off power....a very wise thing indeed for us all to adopt. I recently landed for the first time at a friends' new short strip. Just prior to preparing for take off I asked him " what is beyond that fence at the end of the strip ?" which caught him off guard. I wanted to know what I would be dealing with if the noise quit.

 

I would like to make an attempt to post the aforementioned article "INVITING DISASTER, INVITATION ACCEPTED" in it's entirety, as it really drives the point home 100%..........................................................................................maj...

 

 

[farri]

Ross,Good post,as usual.

 

Good onya.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

Ps, That accident must have been an experience,I`m pleased you`re still here.................Rejected by the Devil,fortunately.......:devil:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, Me and the ol Devil have been friends for a while now !!.................maj... :see saw:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow Ross. What a story. Sorry about your mates.

 

They used to practice asymmetrics in twins on takeoff, till some one clever worked out that more people were being killed "practicing" the single engine out on upwind, then were dyeing in real life afato's in twins. If we go introducing low level turn backs into our syllabus then we could expect to see more fatalities.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Would certainly agree Merv....not a good manouver at the best of times.....and certainly very risky with an engine out while trying to manage airspeed. The ag pilots don't even do it...instead preferring to use the pturn manouver....with power.......The guys in the US made video were starting at 500 Ft (or was it 600')and knew it was coming, they also still had the prop windmilling and made no mention of flap usage, still interesting viewing......The last emergency return to the airstrip that I did was in a P92 Tecnam after an engine cowl blew up at around 300ft after takeoff. We still had power and made a gentle, wide 360 deg turn back onto the runway whilst watching the cowl pop up and down in front of the windshield ! With myself and the owner on board we calmly coordinated what needed to be done with only minor panic. It was the result of the owner preflighting and failing to latch one side, and me trusting him !..hell I've even got the photos to prove it !

 

..........................Maj...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[farri]

Test Flight.

 

Folks,It`s Show and Tell time.

 

Ross, quite a while back,I test flew this AC for a new pilot,wasn`t on my property,plenty of room though.

 

After a thorough preflight,ran it up and down the strip untill I was satisfied,took off and did a couple of circuits,no problems,did a couple more,every thing fine so I started putting it through it`s paces.

 

Did some tight maneuvers,performing well, so I did a few more when all of a sudden, Bang,Bang,Bang.

 

(Me thinking).......... "What the hells going on,Keep cool, take it easy,it`s still flying,just keep flying it,do a gentle circuit,go in and land".

 

Landed no problems and found an aluminum panel between the two wings had decided to let go and flap around, bad design.

 

All`s well that ends well,I say.

 

Frank.

 

 

 

[farri]

You better believe it,cfi.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hey a little Pelican Frank..Gee early rego. There's one for sale at Woodstock...they get along ok don't they ?. I haven't flown one, but I did fly with it in the Drifter, seemed to be ok for speed.

 

Yes nothing like having bits flapping around in flight I reckon, I forgot to mention when the Tecnam cowl flew open it shaved a bit off the rear of the prop, good shower of fiberglass particles went past my window....great fun !!! Sure does get your attention. Do you remember Brian Mc Culloch ?...I bought him up in the Drifter to buy the red thruster that time. We are still great friends, and he has had an Xair for a while now out on the station. I actually soloed him in my Drifter once, and he handled it well. He's a top bloke. The Xairs are not a bad ride either, and will turn tighter than a Drifter which really surprised me no end. Strap one on if you get the chance...........................................................................Cheers Ross

 

 

[farri]

Ross,other that what I mentioned,it flew well.

 

Have a look at incidences & accidents and see what happened a couple of weeks later.

 

I`ve flown an X Air several times,belongs to one of the guys I taught,I`m helping him rebuild a 582 at the moment.

 

Ps.

 

Ross,go wash your tongue,(maybe go burn the tip of your typing finger),an X air turning tighter than the Drifter:laugh:.who were the pilots?

 

Come up here with an X air, I reckon a pylon race will settle it.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hi David, Yes that's correct, classic water in the fuel thing, and it accumulated in the lower sump. I will post the actual report for you to read sometime today. It amazes me that you still run into pilots flying 182s,( and other Cessnas) who don't even know that belly-drain is even there ! My estimate of the height when the engine quit was about 120 to 150 ft..200' max. The engine went from full take-off power, to zero instantly...nothing in between. We had four on board, only one seat being a jump-plane, and full fuel. We were over the end fence and the female passenger beside me in the back screamed as soon as the engine quit (her first ever light plane ride). Fred the pilot who I had known for some years, turned around and said "hang on". He then without hesitation, and quite aggressivly dropped the left wing, and I'm sure probabily kicked in a bit of rudder. When the wing went down I looked over out the left side window straight at the ground. (I was sitting in right rear) I then felt some Gs and looked foward through the windscreen and just saw the trees and ground coming up rapidly. I estimate time from engine quit to impact was max 5 seconds. He didn't get to wings level, although we had turned almost a full 180 deg, we basically run out of air and hit left wing low, which was almost torn clean off. I don't think we had the height to spin, the inside wing probabily just stalled and the nose went down. Fred Lucky was a good jump pilot, and probabily flew me on my very first jump at Camden many years ago. I had also had one other emergency with him there, when a fuel cap was left off by the refueller. We made a quick return back to camden after take-off.

 

When we hit at Batchelor, the ground was soft from recent rains which helped. The rest of the plane was a wreck as you will see in the photos. We were covered in avgas and it should have exploded, but didn't, so I am here to write this. For a few years after, I got really strange every time I got a wiff of Avgas (I was back jumping and refueling 182s in 12 months). The crash investigator told me a few days after, that this type of accident is often all fatal, in his experience. At the inquest which I attended later as the main witness, they never at any time blamed the pilot for his actions that day. Simply put he had to make a split second decision faced with big trees ahead, and no time, and it turned out to be the wrong one, at least for him and the foward jumper. The lady beside me, Wendy, tracked me down a few years back and now lives in Perth. We had a reunion at Port Douglas a few years ago which was great. She still has surgery on her ankles every now and then, which were both smashed in the accident, but has married well, and is quite happy with two children. Turns out we have the same birthday ! (same year even) and we still communicate often . One thing she did which really impressed me, was when she got out of hospital in Darwin, she went out to the airport and took a senic in a 182....that took guts !. Cheers Ross

 

 

[farri]

My estimate of the height when the engine quit was about 120 to 150 ft..200' max. Ross

Never....Never....Ever....attempt a turn back,in any aircraft at this height.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

That's exactly right Frank !! As promised I will now post the accident report of the 182 low level turn back accident on 17 March 1974., with some other photos from the time. Sorry for the quality of the newspaper reports. You may need to use the + button to do some reading.

 

I do so for educational purposes, as this is still a very valid lesson on a move that still unfortunatly gets good pilots every year. You do not turn back at low level lest the ground come up and smit thee !

 

I make this post with the greatest respect to both Fred Lucky, a good jump pilot and friend, and Trevor Lamont, a fellow jumper who didn't make it that day.

 

If one good life can be saved from reading the report then we will all be happy.... Maj...

 

PS: Don't you just love the 70s style girls pony-tails, and Elvis style sunnies on the blokes in the last group photo. Wendy the other passenger in the plane is on the left in a wheel chair with leg still in plaster. She was air evacuated out of Darwin that Xmas after the cyclone destroyed the place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yenn]

Lots of views here and most of them seem sound to me. Now I shall have to go out and give it a few trial runs, see what height I find to be the minimum and in what conditions. I will keep my runway 1000' above GL for a start as it is not good practice to go from full power to idle and could well result in a real engine failure.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Good luck Yenn....at least you'll be getting a bit more familiar with the Corby and what it can or can't do. Doing it all at a 1000' sounds like a sound idea to me...............maj...

 

 

[Exadios]

i just re-watched the turnback video posted earlier, its interesting to note, in both cases where they did make it back, they were performing steep turns on the stall warning horn or actually at the airframe buffet region of the impending stall.. how comfortable are you doing a steep turns on the stall at low level with no engine.....

If you are near stall in the turn (or any where else) then you must put the node down. Don't even think of anything else!

 

 

[Yenn]

Today I did a few rough tests to see what numbers I could come up with. To reduce the possibility of mistreating my engine I started these tests at the speed I wanted from level flight, mainly by getting to altitude, reducing power to idle and then when I had the speed I wanted just putting the nose down to maintain that speed. I tried 80, 75, 70 and 65 kts, all with varying bank angles turning into wind for about 45 deg of turn then the opposite way until I had completed the 180 deg required to turn back. My altimeter is 1 revolution to 10,000' so not very accurate and I was unable to check if I was directly above the strip or a bit to one side. Height losses varied from about 450' to 900' the 80 and 65kts resulted in greater height losses and flatter bank angles also resulted ingreater height losses. The best results were about 70 or 75kts and about 40 deg of bank resulting on 450' loss. Knowing that an actual power failure is not going o be as easily handled as my tests, it is apparent to me that any engine failure before I would normally turn crosswind is going to prevent me getting back to the strip and if i am on crosswind the turn requirements have changed.

 

I did try 1 power reduction just after take off at about 450' and there was no way I would have got back, I would have been about 45deg off course.

 

So for me the decision is made. Do not turn back unless I am doing 75kts min at engine failure and am at greater than 500' above strip level.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well done Yenn....that's all very interesting. The thing to remember it appears, is the amount of height that is lost in the turn-back without power, even when watching things closely. And that is of course, if you don't manage to stall the inner wing while trying !!.

 

I feel ones' time may be better spent choosing, and heading for, the most suitable area possible for a controlled forced landing, and getting fuel and electricals off. At that point as far as I'm concerned, saving your life (and maybe your passengers) is paramount. It would be depressing, but I am sure I could eventually get over loosing the aircraft, especially when the insurance check arrives !.........once again well done...hope you enjoyed it...............................Maj...

 

 

[Tomo]

I was mucking around in the drifter the other day, and I practiced a turn back procedure at 1500ft on a full power 50kt climbout - cut power, nose down and a 180 turn, 45degree bank. Into wind it was 210ft, with a tail wind it was 260ft. And that was being ready for the failure! One up (and I'm light) with 40ltrs of fuel.

 

Interesting fiddling around, worth doing I reckon.