CASA discussion paper

[John Brandon]

If you currently operate in Class E (or may in the future) or at non-towered aerodromes which have (or may have) some RPT movements, then you should take note of the current CASA discussion paper titled 'Proposed Strategy and Regulatory Plan in support of the Australian Government's Aviation White Paper'. Comments will be accepted by CASA only up to November 30 (I think). It can be found on the CASA website.

 

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - DP 1006AS

 

The parts which will affect GA and RA VFR aircraft are the following:

 

1. Class E airspace will be expanded, presumably laterally and vertically into Class G.

 

2. Aircraft operating in Class E must be fitted with (expensive) Mode S transponders.

 

3. Forward fit requirements for new and replacement transponder installations and all new aircraft registrations to have Mode S transponder with ADSB OUT capability. This will affect all replacement transponder installations and all aircraft newly placed on the Australian Aircraft Register and the aircraft registers of recreational aircraft organisations, after end 2013.

 

4. 2020-2025 Electronic surveillance of traffic by either aircraft-to-aircraft or ATC will be assured for operations in controlled airspace generally, in all airspace at/above FL110, and from the surface within 20NM of any busy noncontrolled aerodrome having traffic densities exceeding a risk-based threshold.

 

5. 1 Jan 2020: Mandatory fitment of Mode S + ADS-B OUT transponder capability required for aircraft operating in Classes A, C, D and E airspace; in Class G airspace at/above FL110, and from the surface within 20NM of designated aerodromes (i.e. an aerodrome listed with safety criteria based on traffic density and having RPT services.)

 

John Brandon

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Gee Wizz i just can't understand why Eugene can't work out why people are not renewing their RAAus membership and finding other past times to spend their money on. This sort of crap would not have any thing to do with it, now would it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes!

 

You will get NO argument from me on that, Ozzie. Nev

 

 

[Thx1137]

And this will reduce the number of accidents from what to what and at what cost? Varifiable numbers would be nice instead of something from a marketing team.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Options 1 and 5 are the most alarming ones for me. I would be mortified to have Class E encroaching into G airspace, as it sounds like those aerodromes we now enjoy could be off-limits in time to come, for no demonstrated reason. I'll be reading a couple of the documents and urging RA-Aus to respond on behalf of their members.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

My mind harkens back to that statement from Mr McCormack (CASA Safety head) about sending them back to the weeds ?........We need our paid leaders? in Canberra to bat for us on this rubbish........................Maj...

 

 

[kaz3g]

Thank you John for your post re CASA's resonse to the White Paper.

 

The first thing that came to mind as I worked my way down their highly structures questionnaire was where does the majority of GA, especially training and private operations, fit in at all? Other??? I mean, OTHER? If you aren't passenger or freight you don't rate a mention.

 

What it means if it comes to pass is the exclusion of a great many of us from much of the airspace associated with airports around regional Australia. Either that or an investment of 25% or more of the then depleted values of our aircraft to purchase and install the avionics for the Australian version of the ADS-B system they obviously intend to install irrespective of the "consultation".

 

kaz

 

 

[pylon500]

Looks like we'll all have to move to central Australia and just do 500 ft circuits around our own privately owned paddock :baldy: :kboom:

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Looks like we'll all have to move to central Australia and just do 500 ft circuits around our own privately owned paddock :baldy: :kboom:

Arthur.

I'm afraid i wouldn't count on that Arthur - table B1 suggests ADS-B Out + Mode S could be mandatory in all class G sometime after 2020.

 

When this subject last reared its ugly head the suggestion was for it to be mandatory at all airfields which required radio - since then the number of airfields in that category has of course hugely increased

 

John

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I would probably wear the cost of ADS-B equipment, as long as the trade-off was that G airspace is not reclassified.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

Do we really have that many mid air collisions or near misses for VFR flights in Australia that this is actually necessary?

 

Who or What is driving this agenda and , more importantly, why?

 

 

[facthunter]

Agenda.

 

It's for Airlines. Nothing much else will exist in australia eventually. Our "airline" pilots will be trained elsewhere by then.

 

ADSB will be costly and as yet I remain unconvinced that it will do the job that some think it will. You would have to retain considerable Radar surveillance anyhow because the "bad" guys would simply turn it OFF. (or cut the wire). Whether you are visible or invisible is up to you.

 

Imagine the "clutter" when there is a big event on.

 

You turned OFF the transponder when using the "old" GAAP lanes of entry for the same reason, with less traffic density. Nev

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

So , let me get this sorta straight.

 

The airlines,which spend the majority of their time at Flight levels waaaaaayyy above most RA /GA traffic and some time descending down into the lower flight height regimes (which are marked on the maps for our information awareness and avoidance if needed) at some relatively few major Centres. Most of the rural centers have relatively few RPT movements(E.g Toowoomba). Ok fly into CTA at Bris SYD, Melb etc and have a transponder most of us would say- fair enough . But whats with the scatter gun approach to RAA and GA aircraft needing expensive Transponders and ADSB for flying VFR into low volume traffic, rural airports!.There has gotta be another reason. Are the ATPL pilots all paranoid or something? Maybe they should worry more about package bombs than being hit by a Jabiru/Savannah/C172 Piper 140. Or is this just another CASA "safety" initiative by being seen to "be doing something" . If this comes in they(CASA) better be prepared to either subsidise the supply of Transponders or have lots of mystery aircraft in the air. Now if I was conspiracy theorist (and I'm not)or a paranoid airline exec or pilot we could offer the hypothesis then it may follow that if that occurs then they will probably use that engineered "fact" as an excuse to ban GA and light aircraft flying...Killing GA completely...

 

It strikes me the whole scenario is just another case of the bureacracy going mad..

 

 

[dazza 38]

I guess Comrade McCormick, will put one in his Yak 50, when they come available, we (tax payers) pay him enough.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

Comrade McCormick and his Campaign Against Sensible Aviation are starting to make Stalin look like Daffyd Thomas from Little Britain...

 

:stirring pot:

 

 

[bilby54]

Most of the rural centers have relatively few RPT movements(E.g Toowoomba). Ok fly into CTA at Bris SYD, Melb etc and have a transponder most of us would say- fair enough . But whats with the scatter gun approach to RAA and GA aircraft needing expensive Transponders and ADSB for flying VFR into low volume traffic, rural airports!.There has gotta be another reason. Are the ATPL pilots all paranoid or something? Or is this just another CASA "safety" initiative by being seen to "be doing something" ..

I have noticed a distinct change in attitude towards other aircraft by the red kangaroo captains in the last 6 months.

 

I thought that it was just the RAA aircraft that were being treated as pains in the butt to their operation until I heard them trying separate the locally based Kingair that was 30 miles away and clearly visible on TCAS.

 

I live and train at an airport that has a fair amount of heavy twin traffic and everyone gets along fine so it is very probably current CASA policy. I think that there will be a lot "black" flying in the future. Pity but I may have to take the path of civil disobedience in this case

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

The discussion paper is contradictory with the forward fit requirements of Mode S transponders and ADSB-OUT:

 

"This will affect all replacement transponder installations and all aircraft newly

 

placed on the Australian Aircraft Register and the aircraft registers of recreational aircraft organisations, after end 2013."

 

So from that statement, it seems all new recreational aircraft will need this equipment. BUT, CASA's argument throughout the paper is more than 99% based on RPT GA aircraft above FL110, over 1500kg/5700kg and in controlled airspace. Why do they say recreational aircraft will be affected then?? No recreational aircraft fits those operational criteria.

 

 

[pylon500]

I guess I'd be willing to go back to staying below 5000ft if the regs could be amended to only having all this electronic gear fitted if flying above.

 

Maybe we could get VTC's drawn up with dedicated climb/decent lanes to all RPT airports, and all of us RAAus and GA just keep out of the lanes except while in circuit?

 

There must be some way of introducing a form of sanity to all our combined operation?

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

And this will reduce the number of accidents from what to what and at what cost?

No it will not and it will be expensive.

The cheapest Mode-S ADS-B out transponder is around US$3500 and has to be fitted by a LAME. If you have a 24 registered aircraft used for reward or a GA registered aircraft, there will need to be an STC or at the very least signed of by a CAR35 organisation. Add a bit more to the standard LAME's fees. Just now the FAA has proposed that in the US, ADS-B equipment may only be installed under an STC or ATC. If CASA follows their lead, do you reckon Tecnam or Garmin will go through the STC process to fit the transponder to your P92? I don't think so either. Ba afraid, be very afraid.

 

But after all that, it only spits out its GPS location if interrogated by radar, which means ATC or TCAS. However, there are no, nor are there planned, airline TCAS solution using ADBS-B. Standard TCASII with Mode-C works just fine for them.

 

Most of the time we will be flying, we will be too low for ATCs radar to pick us up. Even if they did, they already rarely give traffic warnings to aircraft in G airspace. Adding ADS-B into the mix will not make a difference.

 

There will also be no traffic information broadcast (TIS), like there is in the US, even if we are in radar coverage. That means you'll be flying out of Aldinga while I am flying in. Both with our $7000+ ADS-B out equipment squawking and ATC picking it up. Because there is no TIS broadcast, we still don't see each other and crash into each other just like before.

 

The bottom line is that ADS-B is not going to lower number of incidents in controlled airspace compared to mode-c. Outside of controlled airspace it could do that - if we get TIS, but we won't. So it ads absolutely zero value in any situation I can think of.

 

 

[ausgee]

I probably have more near mid airs than anybody on the planet. I have been up close and personal with a C-5 at night and it is big. Air Traffic control was in a panic. I was stuck in an up draft going up with the engine at idle. The C-5 decided he would turn just as started to declare an emergency and ask that he turn.

 

Here is a thought. Most mid air collisions happen in "controlled airspace".

 

One of the few of mine that weren't was on my first solo. I turned base after dutifully announcing my position all the way around the pattern to find a windshield full of airplane. I asked what his intentions were. He said " Ahm a Gonna LAND! I climbed over him and exited the pattern. That flight instructor will never be the same.

 

Technology is expensive. But so are new seat covers.

 

The more buyers the less the cost. Now everybody and his dog can build avionics gear. Thank goodness we don't have just the folks in the giant companies.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Why do they say recreational aircraft will be affected then?? No recreational aircraft fits those operational criteria.

That's because Qantas Link's ADS-B IN will be useless at Broken Hill without all the light aircraft there having ADS-B out.

Because they are mandated to have IN, we are logically mandated to have OUT.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

The more buyers the less the cost. Now everybody and his dog can build avionics gear. Thank goodness we don't have just the folks in the giant companies.

Any one can build this stuff, but not anybody can do it with a paper trail that will allow for certification. Those who do have huge development cost.

There is a reason the Microair transponders are not actually significantly cheaper than Garmin or Bendix/King's cheapest models.

 

That's not going to change with ADS-B, likely only worse.

 

 

[dazza 38]

How much is the Mode S transponder with ADS-B out, going to cost each?

 

PS-Just Googled it- two to three thousand.US dollars, plus fittment etc.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

And completely unnecessary for light aircraft in GA and RAA. Just another example of the EASA style of new CASA bureacratic impositions on Australian pilots. Get on the CASA site guys and give them your feedback. I wonder what AOPA thinks...

 

 

[dazza 38]

And completely unnecessary for light aircraft in GA and RAA. Just another example of the EASA style of new CASA bureacratic impositions on Australian pilots. Get on the CASA site guys and give them your feedback. I wonder what AOPA thinks...

I second That