Trike down at Goulburn, pilot killed.

[Guest ozzie]

All LSA types in the USA require training via approved instructor and aircraft type. FAR 103 at this stage do not require training. 103 ultralights are not classed as aircraft they are classed as recreational vehicles. With this said it is still highly recommended that some training at least to solo stage in a type similar be undertaken. Most do seek training. There has been a resurgance in 103 due to the GFC and most new owners are stepping down from LSA to 103.There has been some concern in the USA about the loss of two seat 'fat' ultralights either being grounded or moved to LSA type and the now lack of availability of instructors and two seat aircraft to train 103 pilots.

 

It will be interesting to see when the investigation is complete, whether this accident was caused by lack of training, knowledge and pilots prior history or some other non training related reason.

 

 

[Methusala]

Very much off thread but I do like your new avatar!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

You really mean 'futher' off thread.

 

 

[Methusala]

No, FURTHER!

 

 

[facthunter]

'futher"

 

Is Ozzie from NZ? N.

 

 

[10.5]

snipThese people will always be with us. Education and peer pressure have a slight hope in this endeavour, I don't see how anything else will. I believe we are to a significant extent our Brothers keepers. We all have an obligation to speak up when we know our Brothers are doing unwise things.

 

snip

 

David,

 

I have been following this thread with interest and submit the following thoughts for your consideration.

 

Clearly these people are not always with us, as is evidenced by this latest event.

 

I agree that education and peer pressure are useful but they are dependant upon a few factors which are not always present :

 

1. Moral engagement i.e the comprehension that one's actions have an impact (no pun intended) on others.

 

2. A willingness and ability to accept advice / education / peer pressure.

 

3. A realistic risk perception.

 

4. Accountability.

 

5. A sane view of the world that is coherent with our own.

 

6. An acceptance / understanding that aviation rules are usually written retrospectively, in the blood of those who provided the data points upon which the rules were based.

 

I respectfully submit that exerting influence and changing behaviour is a much more complicated process, and the best advice offered to the deaf, the blind or the bewildered is wasted, lost and may even provoke more extreme responses.

 

Let me pose a not so hypothetical situation. How does the game change when someone, such as the departed, is advised of unwise behaviour and responds with threats of personal violence and attempts to run the advisor over with his motor vehicle?

 

Are we still our brother's keeper? Perhaps we are, but not everyone is our brother.

 

Regards

 

John

[facthunter]

Suitablity for the Flying Environment..

 

Some are beyond help and just know best (so they think). Some injure themselves and some injure others as well. A fatalistic view may be needed to a point, to come to reality.

 

The movement DOES suffer collectively, there is little doubt of that. Concentrate on the majority, who want to be safer pilots. (I do not intend this as a conclusive statement on this particular incident, but juat follows on from thread comments.) Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Hey Ozzie. I hope you reported that "bird strike" in your Avatar! :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

That time of year again, increasing 'fatman alerts'....bro

 

 

[Kev]

Just a thought, but if the trike was unregistered, then who is investigating the accident?

 

Safe Flying

 

Kev

 

 

[Teckair]

Just a thought, but if the trike was unregistered, then who is investigating the accident?Safe Flying

 

Kev

I have an idea the police investigate ultralight accidents, sometimes with RAAus aircraft RAAus assists but the problem is we rarely find out what happened.

 

 

[Ferris]

Teckair you are correct. ATSB generally do not investigate "ultralights" and are attending fewer GA accidents due to budgetry constraints. Local police are responsible for the investigation and preparation of the Inquest Brief. They may use RA-Aus or any other organisation to assist. Once the police are involved the privacy issues kick in, and unless there is an open inquest or criminal prosecution, all documents and recommendations remain with the police.

 

Cheers

 

Ferris

 

 

[68volksy]

There's not many people who can hear a word of caution and actually listen. The whole ego thing plays too big a part in the aviation community in my view.

 

 

[Teckair]

There's not many people who can hear a word of caution and actually listen. The whole ego thing plays too big a part in the aviation community in my view.

I agree, there seem to be many pilots with over active egos who all think they are gods gift to aviation.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I agree, there seem to be many pilots with over active egos who all think they are gods gift to aviation.[/QUOTLike moths to a flame.

[alf jessup]

I agree, there seem to be many pilots with over active egos who all think they are gods gift to aviation.[/QUOTLike moths to a flame.

Gravity always wins and dirt hurts if you hit it hard enough.

 

If you feel they are flying dangerously and wont listen to you, tell someone who will make them listen.

 

You may lose a frienship but you may just save their life and that they should be grateful of.

 

People always think it will happen to someone else well facts are you might just well happen to end up that someone else.

 

[Teckair]

 

Gravity always wins and dirt hurts if you hit it hard enough.

 

If you feel they are flying dangerously and wont listen to you, tell someone who will make them listen.

 

You may lose a frienship but you may just save their life and that they should be grateful of.

 

People always think it will happen to someone else well facts are you might just well happen to end up that someone else.

If you see a problem and are concerned and report it to the operations manager the person involved will simply deny what you say. It will come down to your word against theirs and nothing will be the end result and at the end of the day you will be regarded as backstabbing dobber who cannot be trusted.

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I accept that position may well be true the first time, but after the opps manager has had 2-3 reports from different people about the same person he'll probably start to think that where theres smoke theres fire.

 

With regard the backstabbing dobber....with some luck he may live long enough to think that...which is of course somewhat ironic in itself, almost like a reverse darwins theory of survival of the fittest.

 

Andy

 

 

[dazza 38]

It is sad that it is likely we may all know someone in that category CFI.David

I did know a couple of these guys, I should say i knew who they where, i wasnt friends with them.Anyway they didnt like to be told that they were not safe and taking risks, flying dangerously, doing aeros in A/c not certified for aerobatic flight AND no aerobatic training. They are both dead, in aircraft accidents, being foolish, egos bigger than their flying skill levels. Luckly they didnt take anybody with them.

PS- This didnt happen where i fly ATM,it was a Long time ago, nowhere near Boonah.I just want to make this clear, in case people think that.

 

 

[alf jessup]

If you see a problem and are concerned and report it to the operations manager the person involved will simply deny what you say. It will come down to your word against theirs and nothing will be the end result and at the end of the day you will be regarded as backstabbing dobber who cannot be trusted.

Teckair,

 

What you say may well be true but my conscience would be alteast clear,(also to his family) I would rather go through my life without that friend whom which i believe would leave me in any case at a later stage through his own actions than to sit on the fence after it happened saying I wish or/I should have said something to my now deceased mate/s.

 

Me personally I don't care what others think of me, I don't and never have (even as an adolescent and teenager) suffered from peer pressure or show off itis, I have a healthy respect for the air I breath as well as the air i fly in.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not perfect (far from it) and have done some silly things in the past but I have been lucky enough to survive and to learn from it.

 

I am one person who believes that things that happen to others can actually happen to me not like a lot of people who think it can only happen to others.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

[Teckair]

 

Teckair,

 

What you say may well be true but my conscience would be alteast clear,(also to his family) I would rather go through my life without that friend whom which i believe would leave me in any case at a later stage through his own actions than to sit on the fence after it happened saying I wish or/I should have said something to my now deceased mate/s.

 

Me personally I don't care what others think of me, I don't and never have (even as an adolescent and teenager) suffered from peer pressure or show off itis, I have a healthy respect for the air I breath as well as the air i fly in.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not perfect (far from it) and have done some silly things in the past but I have been lucky enough to survive and to learn from it.

 

I am one person who believes that things that happen to others can actually happen to me not like a lot of people who think it can only happen to others.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

While I can understand the sentiments being expressed on this thread, the reality is these issues are not that straight forward or black and white. Every so often you come across somebody who has the ego problem mentioned previously and with the ho-hum attitude I know what I am doing so why don't you get lost. Often it will not be your friend otherwise you most likely would be able to talk to them. It is likely the attitude is the problem and there may not be anything in particular you can report to anybody. I have seen several situations where the majority of a club has a poor attitude and you walk away shaking your head thinking someone is going to die here, and that has actually happened. The gung-ho 'I know what I am doing attitude' is the killer and in my experience there is very little you can do about it. A dangerous situation is the pilot who has done about 300 hours without having a prang.

 

[Guest ozzie]

And then it goes to the other extreme where one does know what one is doing and talking about, then some peckerhead with a big mouth and overbearing personality insists that it is done their way. Lot of 'bully boy' attitude around these days.

 

 

[Teckair]

And then it goes to the other extreme where one does know what one is doing and talking about, then some peckerhead with a big mouth and overbearing personality insists that it is done their way. Lot of 'bully boy' attitude around these days.

Quite true, I have found the easiest way is, unless you think you are about see blood, to just let people go at it.

 

 

[djpacro]

Peer Review

 

There are always problems in approaching people with your concerns.

 

It is much better to be in the opposite situation where a pilot comes to you asking for advice - of course, many pilots won't do that.

 

Regardless, I've been promoting peer reviews to try to get aerobatic pilots into the habit of asking others for feedback on the safety of their operations on a regular basis.

 

 

[Teckair]

There are always problems in approaching people with your concerns.It is much better to be in the opposite situation where a pilot comes to you asking for advice - of course, many pilots won't do that.

Regardless, I've been promoting peer reviews to try to get aerobatic pilots into the habit of asking others for feedback on the safety of their operations on a regular basis.

That sounds like a better than average idea I hope it works.