Passenger Endorsement ?????????

[Nightmare]

How long does it take to get your Pilot Certificate from RA Aus after you pass your flying test?Can you fly independently or take passengers once you pass your test and while awaiting your Pilot Certificate?

When I passed my RAA Pilot Certificate this year on Feb 9, I was so excited, I booked and flew the plane for a private hire for the next day. My authority was the signed entry by my CFI in my log book. So to answer your question, you can fly straight after you pass your flight test, I had my RPC in my hands a few days later.

For my PAX endorsement, I just needed to get 10 hours solo (PIC), I had 5 hours at that time of my certificate, and completed the 10 hours on Feb 29. I completed a 20 minute flight test for my PAX with my CFI, who again signed my log book as an authority to carry passengers immediately. The endorsement was on the RAA website that afternoon, and I received the paperwork in the mail a few days later. I took my first passenger on March 5, but I could have started taking passengers from Feb 29 after passing my test

 

Does that answer your questions?

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Yes, you are a star *. You have answered my query. Since you are so good and informative, please may I ask 1 more question? I have completed 7 hours of solo before going for the test. Once I finish with my test, will the entire 7 hours of solo PIC be counted towards my Passenger Endorsement or only 5 hours be counted? In other words, will I need to do only 3 hours solo PIC or will I need to do 5 more hours solo PIC? Most people here have said that my entire solo time before the test is counted but my FI says only 5 hours will be counted. Cheers :)

 

 

[facthunter]

The log book is your legal record of actual flying experience. The rules say you must have 5 hours of solo so I personally would just leave it at that. You must also have been instructed in how to brief passengers and weight and balance issues and have a record of your competency. (Be signed off) It's not a thing that just happens after 5 hours. Nev

 

 

[Nightmare]

Yes, you are a star *. You have answered my query. Since you are so good and informative, please may I ask 1 more question? I have completed 7 hours of solo before going for the test. Once I finish with my test, will the entire 7 hours of solo PIC be counted towards my Passenger Endorsement or only 5 hours be counted? In other words, will I need to do only 3 hours solo PIC or will I need to do 5 more hours solo PIC? Most people here have said that my entire solo time before the test is counted but my FI says only 5 hours will be counted. Cheers :)

As Nev said, a PAX endorsement it is not automatic, you have to pass a test. But yes, your 7 hours do count towards the 10 hours PIC time required to go for it, as far as I can see. I'm pretty sure the criteria just states any 10 hours PIC as a prerequisite:

 

Copied from the OPS Manual Issue 7 (the current one) Section 2.07 :

 

"An applicant for the issue of a Passenger Endorsement must:

 

(a) for Group A and B aeroplanes;

 

(i)

 

have logged a minimum of 10 hours flight time as pilot in

 

command of an aeroplane; and

 

(ii)

 

have a minimum of 2 hours flight time as pilot in command

 

of a two seat recreational aeroplane of the same Group, type

 

and design features; or

 

(b) for Group D aeroplanes;

 

(i)

 

have logged a minimum of 25 hours flight time in a Group D

 

recreational aeroplane; and

 

(ii)

 

have logged a minimum of 5 hours and 10 full stop landings

 

as pilot in command of a two seat Group D recreational

 

aeroplane, of the same wing type and performance

 

characteristics that will be used for the carrying of

 

passengers; and

 

© pass a flight check with an RA-Aus Examiner; or

 

(d)

 

provide written proof to the Operations Manager of an appropriate

 

recognised qualification

 

and meet the requirements of subparagraphs

 

10.a.ii. or 10.b.ii. of this Paragraph."

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

I have checked with RA Aus, they need minimum of 10 hrs PIC. 5 hrs is only for Powered Parachute (Group D). Reply from RA Aus -

 

"Hi

 

The 10 hour as PIC requirement for Passenger Endorsement (PAX) can include the 5 for the issue of your Pilot Certificate. You may take passengers once it has been entered into your logbook that you have completed all requirements for the issue of a PAX endorsement by your Instructor. The endorsement form must be submitted to RAAus as soon as possible for processing though."

 

 

[facthunter]

My reference to 5 hours is probably confused with that figure converting from GA or other forms where credit is given for previous hours.

 

Don't take your pax privileges lightly. You as PIC have the responsibility directly for the welfare of who flys with you. Do a good briefing each time with emphasis on exitting the plane , seat belt action and being clear of controls. Be careful who you carry. If you are found negligent or incompetent you could be taken through court. Nev

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Cheers! Will do. Thanks. My 1st passenger is likely to be my father-in-law, so yes, I could well end up in court:yelrotflmao:.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Graemek - Your suggestion did not go down well with my CFI who rang up the RAA regarding the rules to give them a piece of his mind. Irrespective of what the rules say, his opinion as a CFI is that his students need to do at least a few more hours (a minimum of 5) after the test, before doing a check flight for passenger endorsement. This is to ensure that his school is taking the training and passenger endorsement seriously, and all in good intention, to ensure that their school pilots are safer and more confident before being granted a passenger endorsement.

 

By the way - I PASSED MY FLYING TEST - YOOHOO :)

 

Now for some more hours before doing a check flight and getting my passenger endorsement!

 

 

[Fishla]

Wait, you have 10 hours solo but your CFI is demanding you do more without regard to your actual ability before issuing you your pax endo?

 

That is crap.

 

The syllabus says nothing like that and it sounds completely unnecessary.

 

The test is to brief your pax, secure your pax, monitor your pax, what to do in an emergency, sick pax or grabby pax, and understand handling characteristics of the extra weight of the pax.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

He strongly believes that one needs to do more after passing their test to get a passenger endorsement. Generally 5 hrs pre and 5 hours post test.

 

 

[facthunter]

He won't lose money with that belief, but you might. The idea is ok but it begs the question of how good you are at the normal test. The extra weight is a non event as you don't have it solo and when you were doing dual you had the weight of the instructor. Nev

 

 

[Fishla]

If your CFI thinks you personally need a little more time then that is fine.

 

But if you think you know the syllabus and have the required hours a flight test is in order I'd say.

 

Adding minimums to minimums is out of order.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

I agree one hundred percent with facthunter! I have 8 hours of solos in total including 1 hour in a AX2000 from 5 years ago. I guess a few extra hours won't hurt a lot though, other than making me a more experienced pilot. My CFI was overall quite happy with my general flying, although I did have a couple of queasy moments during stall demo, as I don't like the feeling in my tummy when the nose goes really up. For the same reason I don't go on to roller coasters. But on the brighter side I am really unlikely to get into such a situation because of my sensitivity to the queasy feeling I get during stalls. On the other hand, if I did get into a situation like that I feel that I would be confident enough to handle it in a Jab as I did today. After all, how many times do pilots deliberately stall their aeroplanes?

 

Generally how many solo hours do most people undertake before going for their passenger endorsement?

 

 

[Camel]

The idea of solo time is good as it allows time for a person to focus on good decision making and no distraction. Some people can't wait to impress someone and this is normal but can be a distraction and I know the CFI in this discussion and is the nicest and fairest gentleman you would ever meet. Doing the test is usually only done when the instructor thinks the student is ready and is not a point for dispute unless there is a moving of the goal posts as Fishla suggests but I don't think this is mentioned anywhere in this thread, only the time and that is ten hours as pilot in command and COMPETENT to carry passengers !

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

I simply love and adore my instructor and CFI. I could not have asked for someone better to train or test me. If my instructor and CFI think it is important to gain more experience after your flying test, then that is it! I am quite happy to build up my hours post test. In fact although this may not be the norm, I believe all schools should follow this policy as it helps churn out better and more confident pilots. A few extra hours don't harm anyone and can go a long way in making one a better pilot :)

 

My CFI and instructor are the least money minded and the most student focused people that any one could ever come across. I am really very proud and extremely lucky to be a student of this school!

 

 

[Yenn]

Your CFI should know what is suitable for ou or any other student. Hours don't seem to really count nowadays, at least not in the commercial world. I saw a TV show about an Air Asia plane that crashed and although the presenters blamed a rudder limiter fault, the real culprit was incompetent pilots, and they were ATPL.

 

I would assume you are more competent than them, with just a tiny fraction of their hours.

 

Nothing wrong with RAAus pilots, maybe because of their CFIs.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

My CFI's word is the word of Law for me! I know I can trust him blindly. He is best aware of my capabilities.

 

 

[DWF]

If you trained under the old GFPT syllabus or more recently RPL you were deemed competent to carry passengers as soon as you passed the flight test.

 

Are RAAus trained pilots any less competent than those GFPT/RPL trained pilots?

 

Not at my flight school and I hope not at any other RAAus flight school.

 

 

 

That said, I do not think it is a bad idea for a newly minted pilot to get a few hours solo experience to consolidate before having to worry about the distraction of carrying a passenger.

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Yes DWF, rules and regulations aside, I am with my CFI on consolidating my training before taking on any passenger.

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't rush to carry passengers. The records are full of people who have regretted carrying their best Mate etc whose spouse will not hesitate to claim from your estate if you have played a part in his /her demise, whether you really were negligent or not. If you aren't mentally prepared and responsible a few more hours won't make much difference, if you are a show off.. Your passengers trust you and you should be worthy of that trust. You should be more cautious with passengers because their life is in your hands.

 

How much good and valuable experience you have depends on the weather conditions etc you had during your training. If you have coped well with a bit out of the ordinary conditions that helps. If it's all been smooth you haven't been tested. Controlled and well managed approaches with fairly average but consistent landings are better than fluked greasers with no chance to show what you will do if things change for the worst.. Nev

 

 

[nong]

Some pilots have personality or physical defects that are likely to make their flying high risk.

 

For this reason, I have been known to delay or refuse to issue the endorsement.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

I agree with you Nev. Iam definitely not a show off. My father in law is leaving in a month and I wanted to show him around before he left. My attitude towards flying is better safe than sorry. But I know what you mean. Some people do like to test the limits and deliberately put themselves and others in a dangerous position. Like the guy who was rocking his wings in mid air for no apparent reason!

 

I only want to take him up and show him what the world looks like from 2000 feet above the ground with his son in law as a PIC and himself in the cockpit. This would be his only chance. And I want to be best prepared for it by listening to whatever my CFI recommends.

 

I am a GP by profession and I understand only too well what it means to take responsibility for other people's lives.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Having grown up with the GA system as an instructor and ATO, I find the whole PAX endorsement odd. Why would RAAus not simply adopt the RPL syllabus, standards and privileges? These have been developed over many years with their roots in the RAAF pilot training scheme of the 1940's. It shouldn't be about GA versus RAAus, but about a well developed syllabus.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

My understanding is that RAAUS is for the everyday 9-5 man and to make it easier for anyone to become a pilot with enough basic training, without breaking the bank. Once you get your Pilot Certificate it depends more on self directed learning and how you make use of your post certificate hours. Where as RPL training is oriented more towards professionals.

 

As Nong pointed out, RA accepts there is a difference in personality and risk management behavior between pilots, hence further endorsements such as passenger endorsement are based on further assessments.

 

 

[facthunter]

Certified aeroplanes are more predictable and are designed to be quite easy to fly. That's part of the marketing of them. Most of the quirks have been designed out of them . They don't vary as much as different builds of some RAAus types do.. Most carry more than one passenger. They are bigger and handle wind gusts better.

 

Many RAAus planes are quite demanding to fly compared with them. A passengers weight makes a lot of difference to the plane's performance often because of the weight % change particularly on a hot day with an aerodrome at some height. where performance becomes much reduced

 

I can understand an instructor's dilemma with the consideration of relatively low total hours student flying a passenger, but as I pointed out a few posts back the performance of the plane with the maximum number of people on board is not a new experience as it would be with a GA plane which carries four typically.. A GA pilot at some stage should have done a full load check or instruction period also.

 

Flying dual is the same near full load situation, as flying with a passenger, for an RAAus plane. Nev