Pilots vs. Unions

[facthunter]

Not money alone.

 

Not just about wages and conditions, either. It's about SAFETY as well

 

IF a pilot cannot refuse to take a plane which is not legal, Due overloading, extended duty time. repairs not done, less fuel than needed , etc etc without losing his job, where is the bottom line? The LAW requires the PIC to ensure that the aircraft is up to the standard required and is operated appropriately or he can lose his house or go to jail. With his job on the line (without a Union to protect him ) what does he do? Nev.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Plenty of vessels sailing the seas that should be sitting on the bottom. They use what is known as a 'flag of convienience' that belongs to countries with the lowest of standards.

 

It does not matter what industry you want to refer to. There will always be those who have no morals or standards just to make a quid. It also seems that these sort of practises are not deminishing but getting worse. Pilots from India who have bought their qualifications are a popular subject at the moment. Telemarketer one day, F/O the next.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Plenty of vessels sailing the seas that should be sitting on the bottom. They use what is known as a 'flag of convienience' that belongs to countries with the lowest of standards.It does not matter what industry you want to refer to. There will always be those who have no morals or standards just to make a quid. It also seems that these sort of practises are not deminishing but getting worse. Pilots from India who have bought their qualifications are a popular subject at the moment. Telemarketer one day, F/O the next.

"Panama" rings a bell.

 

 

[Methusala]

Who's endangering Who?

 

It is obvious to any of us that Jetstar's strategy in offshoring their pilot base has something to do with pressure on standards. I heard the other day that a check captain with a large Australian carrier had a number of Korean f/o's in the simulator. With assametric thrust and automatic aids turned off not one could recover from the stall!

 

On another tack, here in the ACT the construction industry has suffered a string of serious failures including1. Collapse of a large hanger at the Canberra airport, 2. Collapse of a concrete floor in a city office under construction and, 3. Collapse of a road bridge being poured. These are high profile events but each one is far more serious than the highly publicised transgressions of over zealous unions (The "storming" of Parliament House in the 90's comes to mind). In this event no-one was hurt and a pair of doors were damaged. We need to step back from the overblown rhetoric of Murdoch media and decide what we want from companies that hold the public's safety in their hands. Don

 

 

[rage83]

At the end of the day your either a business owner / business man, or your a worker.

 

I don't know how many times I have been involved in debates about this exact topic.

 

It will go on for every and a day.

 

Problem has been stated yes the problem stems back to greedy business men that have no morals and are willing to risk the safety of there men / women working for them to make a quick buck.

 

The question I pose to alot anti union people. Consider yourself working class, going to work every day and doing a good job, only just managing to get by and support yourself / family.

 

End of the week your sitting there having a few beers after work with your work mates and the boss calls you aside. The dreaded DCM.

 

The next Friday one of your work mates calls you up and tells you how hopeless the new guy is. Hang on a minute there is a new guy?????? Is that fair???? Not for a minute. Your at home trying to find work to get your family through and the businessmen are rubbing there hands together knowing there have just saved a few bucks. Probably increasing there profit margin by another 10 percent if that.

 

The unsung story about unions is the safety that they have brought or tried to bring into industry. Nearly all safety improvements in industry has not been brought on by the man it has been brought around by the unions.

 

Business usually isn't interested in improving the safety of there workers. Some genuinly are. In the industry I work in almost all safety improvements have been brought around by the unions. Yes with other parties like the governments and the business themselves, but from experience the business is usually opposed to the safety improvements.The question WHY??? The answer is simple It will cost money to implement those changes or it will slow the workers down thus lower production.

 

I am lucky or unlucky to have been worked within business that have embrassed unions and somet that have avoided them. Is it fair that you should be made go in to work at all hours of the night without extra pay just to improve the business's output. The attitude of those businesses usually is if you don't do it we will find someone who will.

 

The other side part of the equation I have deliberately kept to a minimum is money. Of course the unions have had alot to do with the amount of money we "ALL" get paid now and I say ALL on purpose because if the workers that go out on strike succeed in a pay rise even the non union workers get the cash.

 

One thing that does anoy me whether it be money or safety that the unions and union members have been fighting for. As soon as the change comes in the people that haven't been fighting immediately think they should be entitled to it as well. Even when they were against the unions fighting for it in the first place.

 

But there is always 2 sides of a these arguments. The businessman / Owner and the worker. I consider myself lucky to be able to see the two sides and understand the two sides of the story. Being a worker now in an industry that is heavily unionised. I am glad for the input the unions have had yes some items have not always been a high priority to me but in all I would rather have union support than not.

 

I am also considering starting a contracting business as well so yes I can completly understand the business man oportunity.

 

Sorry everynow and then a topic comes up I just have to jam my 10cents worth in so there it is.

 

Rob

 

 

[winsor68]

Who else is working Xmas Day? At normal pay!!!!!

 

So... My child misses out on Christmas with her Mum and Dad... and we don't even get paid penalty rates for it in Qld.

 

What is wrong with us that we all accept this??? The bastards are making our kids pay for their greed.

 

 

[rage83]

Here Here

 

 

[facthunter]

Opportunity and remuneration disparity..

 

Currently in the developed world and places like China and India there exists the largest disparity we have ever seen historically between the richest and the poorest regarding living standards and opportunity to be educated and get good employment,as a consequence.

 

I believe in the right of ALL people to a good education and the opportunity to get ahead.

 

We have people like the Heads of the Banks who have the gall to be able to look themselves in the mirror and take salaries ot 15 million dollars. They argue that there is a world wide demand and that sets the price. Well these people and their ilk set short-term profit bonus situations where they get the massive golden handshake and leave the company in BAD shape for the long term. Employees are sacked that would be long term assets to the company.

 

Look at the actions of Macquarie bank and their associated groups Macquarie Airports, Macquarie Infrastructure group, over the years..

 

In the meantime we pay the prime minister who is only running the COUNTRY (or should be) 1/40th of what the Bankers give themselves.

 

Some of these incomes are literally obscene because of the amount and the way they are structured.

 

I don't mind if someone invents something or is a great pop star and gets a bucket of dough.

 

The ordinary wage earner is a decent bloke/ gal, who does an honest days work and gets hardly enough to get by. They can't ever educate their kids in a "Private" school, and have trouble paying the "extra's" like excursions etc, in a Public School.

 

They have fallen behind in real terms and it now takes TWO people working to try and get by, in the family unit. Something is wrong somewhere. We now have two family people working to provide at the level ONE used to.

 

Perhaps expectations and the high level of borrowings are a factor too. Money is too readily available to some who probably cannot pay it off.

 

State Governments are far too reliant on gambling, liquor, tobacco taxes, road traffic fines, GST that impacts more on the lower socio-economic groups, as they are a larger percentage of their available income.

 

Statistically, the very poor are more generous at giving/donating than more well-off people. People like Fred Hollows/David Suzuki should be our heroes not people who live in a conspicuously affluent way, and think that is where it is at. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

And then... here comes the kicker... they engineer a lie that its the workers fault because they have so many material possessions (we have all heard it... "When we started out we had nothing but a mattress on the floor and a kitchen table with 2 chairs... These days they all expect so much" etc etc or some such)... when ironically its is our enforced reliance on these consumer goods that supports the whole thing.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

If anyone is not happy with their job the obvious answer is to look for another one or start your own business, work for yourself.

 

The latter option also gives the opportunity to find out all about government regulation and paperwork.... which is very often the reason why your previous employer acted they way they did. A good learning experience!

 

 

[Methusala]

As usual in the discussions on this site I am really impressed with the good will and common sense on display. I would like to indulge momentarily in a small fantasy that I

 

have. I propose a reform of our democracy. I would like to see the 2 houses retained but their roles changed. The members of one house would be responsible purely for deciding how taxes would be raised. In the other house decisions would be made concerning how to spend our taxes. Therefore the taxing members would appeal to the electorate on the fairness of taxation measures proposed. Those whose schemes appealed to the majority would be elected. Unpopular taxes such as the GST, which as Facthunter rightly pointed out is unfair to the poorer people, would not get a look in. Those such as taxing the obscenely rich mining companies and banks would of course be a shoe in. Then those standing for the spending house would shy away from schemes to spend horrendous amounts on (mainly) American death technologies which are never used for the stated purpose ie. defence of the country. Housing and hospitals would reign! Similarly, the types of private schools which are and always have been for the spoiling of the 400's would not get a public razoo.Yours in (scant) hope, Don

 

 

[winsor68]

I hear you meth... We seem to have lost common sense... or a sense of being humanity as a species rather than one country, race or other. We are in this together... it is our nature to get greedy. Greed should not be allowed when it applies to the basics of life. We can feed every body... we can clothe everybody... but we can't turn a profit on doing it... thus mankind doesn't have that goal at its core. We should.

 

We need to control population growth.. easy. Make the pill very readily available to ALL humanity... oh wait. Medical companies won't allow that! I mean the third world can't pay $20 per month for birth control!!!!

 

We need to end hunger... easy. There is plenty of arable land still available to grow food if we start looking after it and utilizing it properly... Water? Its a storage/movement problem, not a rainfall problem.

 

But you can't turn a buck by giving the basics of society that all of us take for granted to the 90% of the population that don't enjoy it... but desire it before anything else because at least most of them these days have TV's.

 

 

[facthunter]

Universal TV?

 

Excellent medium totally wasted by either constant brainwashing ads/dumb programs. Or state controlled, Russia China Iran etc. Internet, Brilliant method of communication constantly threatened by governments/ hackers .

 

The mark of highly educated "western" Democratic free societies. Economic strife Difficulties with corruption. Money buys immunity. (Berlesconi's Italy). Money gets you to the white house (USA).

 

Mullah run societies. Kill anyyone who doesn't agree with you. IF you are not sitting on a lake of oil, what do you produce, apart from refugees?

 

If the west is so bad , why does everyone who doesn't live there WANT to live there? Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

If the west is so bad , why does everyone who doesn't live there WANT to live there? Nev

Because for a lot of them the West has bombed the **** out of the area their countries are in... imposed economic "sanctions" upon them, or supplied their corrupt government with arms.... Sadly the West is us... our life is at their expense.

 

It doesn't have to be... it is not the fault of our lifestyle... it the economic system that holds it all in place. I would like to see this fixed. If this is a one world government view then so be it. (now there is a whole new thread right there.. One World Government... LoL)

 

 

[Methusala]

The last time that America & Co (The West) bombed countries that actually posed an existential threat was in 1945. They firebombed Dresden and Tokyo and then, as we know now that they new then it was all over, they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is history. Since then we have seen the immense superiority of the west's technology and resources directed in resource wars against the 3rd world. Perhaps those who live in these exploited and devestated countries WOULD love to live among us in "peace and prosperity". At this time of the year it would be good to see people's thoughts turn to the real questions such as how can we share the Earth's resources such as food and medical help so that many now sick and starving can survive. A 'One world government' would not be a bad idea if they would govern equally for ALL. Don.