Plane crashes in Sydney backyard

[old man emu]

Here's what happened:

 

They were doing engine failure after take off. The student yanked back on the mixture knob and shut down then engine. Then he froze at the controls.

 

The aircraft reared up to near vertical, stalled and entered an incipient spin. The student was still frozen at the controls. The instructor had to overcome the freeze to regain the controls, then recover from the stall/spin. One engine was going full bore, and the other was dead.

 

The aircraft was dropping, but fortunately they had passed over the top of the hill at the end of 06 and the ground was also falling away.

 

The instructor managed to get the plane on an even keel, but it continued to descend. It struck the ground in close to a normal landing configuration and slid along the ground until its progress was arrested by a couple of rural paddock fences. The ditch it went over was just a shallow spoon ditch, and by that time the airplane's forward speed had mostly been washed off.

 

All one can say is that Rob Marshall must be a real bad man, because only the good die young. He must be a reasonable sort of pilot, too. He had precious little time to recover from an almost inverted attitude.

 

OME

 

 

[fly_tornado]

wow! I bet he feels like the luckiest man alive.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Just to add to Nevs, Post. The RAAF lost a B707 into Port Phillip Bay, practising Double Assy training.Also nearly lost a Hercules the same way.Alot of people have died, practising for something instead of it happening for real. Doesnt make sense ,especialy in a 707, pulling back two engines to flight idle on the same wing at excactly the same time, IMO was a foolish thing to do. What are the chances of both Jet engines in real life failing at the same time on the same wing.Lost some good people that day.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow, if that story (by emu) is correct then it sounds like they are both extremely lucky to be here. Sounds as nasty as it could get, have accidently pulled back mixture instead of prop pitch before and know how easy it can be. Rob deserves a medal.

 

Mazda, you should know there doesn't hafta be a windsock ;) ......(call me) ...lol

 

 

[alf jessup]

Just to add to Nevs, Post. The RAAF lost a B707 into Port Phillip Bay, practising Double Assy training.Also nearly lost a Hercules the same way.Alot of people have died, practising for something instead of it happening for real. Doesnt make sense ,especialy in a 707, pulling back two engines to flight idle on the same wing at excactly the same time, IMO was a foolish thing to do. What are the chances of both Jet engines in real life failing at the same time on the same wing.Lost some good people that day.

Dazza,

 

Not being picky but the 707 was lost off coast near Seaspray along the 90 mile beach in Gippsland.

 

Yep actually saw the fateful flight after leaving East Sale RAAF base tracking to the South, half hr later reports were filtering through of it going down.

 

Waste of 5 lives doing something the training manuals says to avoid doing.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[facthunter]

Engines out on one wing.

 

It's really not a problem if you have speed and/or height. If you are sitting at 41,000 feet and you lose a donk you are coming down because you don't have enough power to remain there and not have a low speed stall. Directional control is not a problem as the rudder is effective as your indicated airspeed is about 230 Knots'

 

A B 707 could fly all day at about FL150 with both engines out on one side. Might be persuaded to go a little higher. You have a performance (Speed and Altitude) and a ranging problem, but not a control problem.

 

It's in the approach and overshoot situation that you get difficulties. Most of these aircraft have large fin and rudder areas. They wouldn't have them if they were not needed, and they sure have to be used when you go from idle to max power, and have it on one side only. Again best practiced in a simulator. I am a great fan of the modern simulator, it's a fantastic training aid. Saved many lives. Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

Nev,

 

I think the 707 was practicing minimum control with the 2 out at idle from about 5000 ft when she started to turn turtle on her back once the rudder lost authority, I think i remember reading they tried spooling them back up which didnt help the problem from such a low altitude, in hignsight probably would have been better rolling the other 2 good ones back leveling the wings then pulling out of the dive while bringing them all back up at the same time.

 

But from 5000 in a fair size jet the ocean would have been coming up pretty quick.

 

Had a few mates out fishing in their tinnies that day when it went in who witnessed it from a distance, oddly enough the thing made no real noise when it enterd the water they said.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[Mazda]

It sounds as if the student was the lucky one to have Rob on board. Rob used more than luck to recover. I've always respected Rob (he did my CPL test) and he's just proved the old adage about superior pilots using their knowledge to avoid situations which require superior skills. This time he had to use them.

 

It also proves the other old adage of flying as far into the crash as you can. Freezing will only kill you. First and foremost, fly the aeroplane.

 

Hats off to Mr Marshall.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Nev,I think the 707 was practicing minimum control with the 2 out at idle from about 5000 ft when she started to turn turtle on her back once the rudder lost authority, I think i remember reading they tried spooling them back up which didnt help the problem from such a low altitude, in hignsight probably would have been better rolling the other 2 good ones back leveling the wings then pulling out of the dive while bringing them all back up at the same time.

 

But from 5000 in a fair size jet the ocean would have been coming up pretty quick.

 

Had a few mates out fishing in their tinnies that day when it went in who witnessed it from a distance, oddly enough the thing made no real noise when it enterd the water they said.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

Hi Alf, Sorry for the location error.As you have mentioned, it happened at low Altitude. The criticle thing was that the Captain decided anyway to pull both the engines at the same time.The yaw rate it created exceeded what the full deflection of the Rudder could overcome. Previous to the chain of events that occured, the cockpit discussion between crew was Not to carry out the procedure at that altitude.The Captain did it anyway.(I have read a extract of what was said on the CVR.Word spreads quickly around the RAAF when something like this happens).Anyway the last words spoken was the Flight Engineer to the Captain.I can not repeat it here.

Cheers

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

These discussions show that one should never shut down an engine when practicing engine failure. I saw a Youtube video recently where a single-engine aircraft was shut down at low level just to practice emergency landing procedures. I never quite figured out why - when the engine is at idle, it is not providing enough thrust (or providing the barest minimum of thrust), such that you could say the conditions are close enough to simulating an engine failure - the effect of an idling engine is that the aircraft becomes a glider, as it does when the engine actually fails. It's bad airmanship to push the margins of safety and switch off an engine mid-flight, no matter how experienced you are or how reliable you think the engine is.

 

 

[Spin]

These discussions show that one should never shut down an engine when practicing engine failure. I saw a Youtube video recently where a single-engine aircraft was shut down at low level just to practice emergency landing procedures. I never quite figured out why - when the engine is at idle, it is not providing enough thrust (or providing the barest minimum of thrust), such that you could say the conditions are close enough to simulating an engine failure - the effect of an idling engine is that the aircraft becomes a glider, as it does when the engine actually fails. It's bad airmanship to push the margins of safety and switch off an engine mid-flight, no matter how experienced you are or how reliable you think the engine is.

Different debate really and has been covered here within the past 6mo or so. For the record, I don't agree in the case of a single.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, seems to be some confusion here. What is likely to have happend is the student meant to feather the prop but pulled mixture instead. An accidental shutdown.

 

I like to make sure all students get some 'glider time' by shutting off the engine over the airfield. There are lots of reasons for this. But the most important thing is that once used to it, its less likely to produce the "shock reaction' when it happens in real life. 'Freezing' on the controls is just one possible outcome, and as this thread indicates, this can really upset things.

 

Any instructor (or pilot) should have no excuse for not making the field from 2000 ft over head.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Hmm ... I've been taught engine failures in a Jab where the engine is only throttled back. The emergency recovery procedure starts with putting on carby heat ... every minute or so, you rev the engine a few seconds to warm it (and avoid potential carby icing) and ensure you have the power for a go-around, then throttle back and continue emergency procedures.

 

The Jab engine can be sensitive to icing - I've experienced it when taxiing before takeoff - so it would be less than intelligent to switch it off mid-flight. What about other engines - the Lycoming, Continental or Rotax? Are you pushing safety limits with mid-flight shutdowns?

 

 

[Mazda]

Yes, this appears to be an accidental shut down. It is not normal practise to shut down the engine of a twin in the circuit area - it is normally only set to zero thrust. It is shut down at altitude though.

 

In a single, of course the normal thing is to pull the power back to idle. If you do aerobatics it is possible for the engine to stop in flight, so part of the training is to shut down the engine, then stop the prop, then restart. I've done this with Lycomings.

 

Of course motor gliders shut down their single engine all the time and restart when required.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Engine still might have running, prop was feathered but might not have been able to go back to unfeather. Sometimes the unfeathering accumulater malfunctions. It's one of those things where all sorts of experts know what's happened but the two who were in it are the only one's who know at the moment.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes Burbs, the likely hood of carb ice is slightly increased, but it is not much different to a standard glide approach, the jab carb heat becomes absolutely ineffective at idle and low rpm anyway, the engine simply isn't producing the heat required after even short periods at idle.

 

The prop stops windmilling at around 70 kts, so any check's performed need to involve a "restart". Most checks taught these days FCMOST etc were designed around lycoming's etc which will generally windmill at glide speed, so if the problem is corrected it will simply roar back into life.

 

The real issue is differential cooling, with the different metals used in jab engines having different thermal qualities causes the heads and the pistons to expand and contract at different rates.

 

A high percentage of jab engine issues are found when doing glide appch's, stalls etc where the pilot ask's the engine for full power when the heads have cooled too much, and so, must be nursed back to full power, and as you said, warmed in extended descents.

 

However, the lessons gained in practicing fanstops above an airfield in good conditions far outweigh's the small chance of getting this problem from 2000 feet. IMHO.

 

 

[dazza 38]

HI Guys, as Spin has mentioned he and I have had engine shutdown(single), not just idle.With a Instructor.To get the feel for it. What i have just said is totaly different to have two engines pulled to idle on the same wing at the same time (707 eg)with a massive yaw which sometimes have not been over come with full oposite rudder authority. Some light twins have a VMC close to stall speed.That is when it can be dangerous.In the particular case above as Mozt and others have mentioned.The student pulled the mixture to cut off instead of the Prop to feather.He was never ment to stop the engine.