Without doors

[sseeker]

Hi,

 

Thinking about converting to a Gazelle to take my mate over towards the coast for some photos. Can the Gazelle fly without doors (or a door) to make it easier to take a clean shot? Obviously not with his arms and legs hanging out the aircraft but just to give the lense a clear shot without the window/struts getting in the way. I've checked the POH and it says nothing about it.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Destiny,

 

That's something I'd be a bit concerned about as the passenger has never flown in a light aircraft before. I can already see the lovely puncture in the skins lol. Maybe with a good ground brief he'll be set.

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Learning how to fly the aircraft with no doors is fine because I have to do a checkride on it anyway... Having the PAX open the door inflight just doesn't seem safe unless I can brief them on how to do it properly (it's not that hard) with wind in excess of 120km/h it could be quite difficult & scary for a first time light aircraft flyer that's why I asked if they can be totally removed. The choice of aircraft in WA is minimal. You have a Gazelle, Skyfox CA25, Jabiru 160, Tecnam P92 Eaglet, Foxbat, Texan Top Class 550 and a bunch of trikes online for training all are high wing (except texan) and I don't have a weightshift endorsement. The texan would cost me a total of $450 including airfield membership, checkride and flight time which is out of the question. Really my only option is to take the doors of the Gazelle (or lift them up) or ask someone to borrow there plane and to me asking somone that just doesn't seem right :P

 

Andrew

 

 

[facthunter]

gazelle doors open in flight..

 

Have done this with a student some years ago.who wanted to photograph his property. I checked and found that the door(s) are permitted to be opened in flight. Can't remember where I got the information from ,sorry. The door goes to a position a few inches below the wing surface and the airflow keeps it from impacting the wing. I would be concerned that you could get a door to flex and therefore buffet. Closing requires a speed reduction and a side slip (or a big skid ) ( The usual technique), and just pull and hold. it closed and ensure the pins are in. Having flown plenty of Cessna's with the door off, I would suggest that the most safe operation would be to remove the door, rather than open it. I'd check with Stephen Bell, but you don't get much buffetting in the cabin, if you are worried about that.... Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

Nev,

 

Thanks for your reply, that's what I was thinking. I sent my CFI an email 3 days ago and I'm yet to see a reply (Christmas season). Like I was saying earlier, there is minimal choice of aircraft in WA and a school at Wyalkatchem recently had a Bantam for training but sold it because it wasn't getting used, just as I decided I wanted to do some lessons in it as well That would've been ideal for taking photos.

 

Andrew

 

 

[facthunter]

A Little more

 

The Gazelle is a very easy plane to fly. I would only remove ONE door. Don't put load on the strut with feet and do not pull high "G" at speeds above normal cruise. Nev

 

 

[Guest Wigg]

AndrewYes the doors can be completely removed, above the door there is a long (piano hinge) the full length of the door. You can pull the pin forward and the door can then be removed. Putting it back on is the same in reverse. Don't fly with the door opened as you will lose lift. I have tried it both ways, & the door removed is just like flying it normally. Cheers John

 

 

[sseeker]

Thanks for the info everyone, I appreciate it. I've got in contact with my CFI and I'm starting the conversion and LP endorsement this weekend, my CFI quoted 2-3hrs to do the endorsement.

 

Andrew

 

 

[dazza 38]

Is that in the Bantam Andrew?

 

 

[sseeker]

Nope, in the Gazelle. Bantam was based at Wyalkatchem and is now sold (not sure who owns it now) I fly out of Bindoon which is about a 1hrs flight in the Jab from Wyalkatchem.

 

Andrew

 

 

[dazza 38]

Seriously, the Gazelle should take about 1hour to convert from the Jabirus that includes Stalling power off and power on, glide approach etc. It is alot easier to fly than a Jabiru. I have flown them before and are checked out on them.They are the easiest plane i have ever flown.

 

 

[sseeker]

I've flown a CA25 and a CA25N, the CA25 was hard to takeoff/land but both easy to fly. I thought 2hrs was too much to convert, the hardest thing about the aeroplane would be landing it and getting used to the toe brakes (and I have ~7hrs on a 152 so that won't be hard). Landing it will probably just be like flying a very slow flapless landing? Chances are he said 2-3hrs just in case it wasn't as easy as I thought.

 

Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Flew the Gazelle today in very gusty conditions. Was getting blown all over the place. I need to come back and do some time without the door and I'm set. I mounted the camera on my headset and I have a video uploading to youtube as we speak. Hardest part was landing only because I was coming in pretty fast (because it was very gusty) you can hold the thing off all day and it'll just sink slowly. Once I got that aorund my head the landings were reasonable (much better than I do in the Jab for some reason ) it flies a lot better than the Jabiru but I'm not used to a motor revving so high lol.

 

I'll post again when I upload the video.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi,

 

Video is up at: http://www.recreationalflying.com/showthread.php/129241-Gazelle-CA25N-Flying-Pilots-Perspective?p=253514#post253514

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Destiny,

 

According to the RA-Aus ops manual anything less than 80kts is considered low performance, so you will need the endoresement to legally fly the Gazelle if you only hold HP. It was very turbulent in the circuit but wasn't so bad on landing, I can upload some footage of were the aeroplane is getting thrown around if you want.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[facthunter]

Makes a bit of a Joke of the HP/LP thing. I wouldn't regard a Gazelle as a good example of one or the other. It's an exellent trainer, and very forgiving (as I've said many times). Surely you are trying to cover some characteristics of a low weight/high drag aircraft eg thruster/ bantam.etc v/s something like a Jabiru 230. These examples are not extremes but typify what we are trying to train for. I would regard the LP endo as almost worthless if obtained on a Gazelle. An experience of another aircraft is always worth something, but the LP endorsement should be saved and used only when you want to get into the low inertia-high drag environment . The DH-82 (tiger moth ) would qualify for LP on airspeed but doesn't behave like what the older "lose all airspeed rapidly with power loss" that some U/L's do. The high winged Technams with full flap extended behave very much like an LP and can bite you, more than a drifter, so isn't this all a bit of BS?... Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

Dexter,

 

I can see where you're coming from but the cruise of the Gazelle isn't 80kts, at 5000rpm the cruise is like 65-70kts this is why my school is issuing the LP endorsement, because it cruise at less than 80kts. Then the question is what does RA-Aus base there 80kts on? I always thought that cruise was 75% power.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I personally wouldn't fly a gazelle or Kitfox/Skyfox anywhere near 80Kts unless I knew it had had the aileron-hanger mods installed.

 

I recall in the accident report on the one that threw a wing, and killed two good people,(central Qld) that it was highly recommended the maximum speed be limited to below 80 kts ?...................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Maj,

 

I couldn't agree more, my CFI even went to the effort of putting this in the students handling notes:

 

[ATTACH]12796.vB[/ATTACH]

 

I agree with Nev also, the Gazelle really isn't that slow however it does have a **** load more drag than the Jabiru. I'm not doing this to get the LP endorsement I'm doing it to take the doors off the Gazelle to take some photos with a friend... I was just told I needed the endorsement to do the flight.

 

-Andrew

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Maj,I couldn't agree more, my CFI even went to the effort of putting this in the students handling notes:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19976[/ATTACH]

 

I agree with Nev also, the Gazelle really isn't that slow however it does have a **** load more drag than the Jabiru. I'm not doing this to get the LP endorsement I'm doing it to take the doors off the Gazelle to take some photos with a friend... I was just told I needed the endorsement to do the flight.

 

-Andrew

That is normal at times mate.Depends on the school, depends on Insurance.We at Boonah all have to be checked out on the 3 different Model Tecnams, takes about a hour each time .Its a one off in the Teccys, being easy to fly and tri-gear aircraft. The Savage Cub it has been grounded a few times.Trim Cable once and US prop another time.I have had check flights on 2 occasions after the unservicabilties. Both times the grounding was 2 months or more. Since it can Bite people on landings.Guys checked out on it, had to be checked out on it again. Not a biggie, normaly 3 circuits.one- 3 pointer, second- wheeler landing.3- Glide approach normaly 3- pointer.I realy think it is a great idea.Doesnt cost much to do .4 of a hour with a instructor.It gives me peace of mind, since on both occasions the groundings where over 8 weeks at a time, more like 10 to 14 weeks.I still flew the teccys in between the groundings of the cub cruiser.I hope that made sense.

 

 

[Neil_S]

Hi Guys,

 

I learnt in a Texan, and thus got my certificate as HP, but then bought a Gazelle for which I had to get a LP endorsement. As I understand it the HP/LP thing is based on cruise speed above/below 80 kts, and the Gazelle is rated at 70 kts cruise IAS (75 kts TAS). I usually get 70-75 kts IAS at 4800-5000 rpm which feels comfortable, although in gusty conditions the other day the ASI was jumping up over 80 kts from time to time.

 

Rgds

 

Neil

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have a question, i did a BFR in a Gazelle back in 2000, flew them for a while, I am siqned off in my log book and i flew drifters before that.As this was before the endorsements came out, I didnt get my TW or LP.The TW endorsement wasnt a problem, I had not flown a TW for a long time, so I got checked out in the Cub and was then issued with TW endo. Now My question- should send copies of the pages where i flew Drifters , and Gazelle.So i can get my 2 stroke and LP endos ? Or do i have to go through all the stuff again flying a 2 stroke Drifter. To get on my certicate 2s and LP even though i have flown aircraft that type of aircraft before?

 

 

[facthunter]

There might be a question of recency. There is some suggestion of doing a renewal on One type and the other next time.(HP/LP) .This is almost getting over the top. OK if you are not recent on a TW and not confident do some practice in one with an instructor. That is good sense. (or combine it with an endorsement...ALTHOUGH..

 

There is no such thing as a type (make ) endorsement officially with RAAus. You have the categories. In GA it is the same but SIMPLER. There are LESS of them even though you cover things like pressurisation, Turbine, (retract gear, Constant speed prop, are in both) There used to be group endorsements but now (unless I am out of date) it is all single engined aeroplanes below 7500Kgs.

 

Are we making all this a bit complex? I had a low flying entry in my logbook (signed off) notation in my GA training. I instructed spinning , low flying , aeros as an instructor.( amongst other things.)

 

Later as a senior RAAus instructor I taught LOW LEVEL. I now cannot get this endorsed on my RAAus cert unless I have a reason to use it, ie doing mustering or (I presume) in the course of teaching low level flight. (I'm not instructing at the moment) so there is no need and I haven't pursued it. I can only conclude that the low level thing is a bit of a contentious item. As far as I'm concerned IF you cannot safely fly low level you could not practice a precautionary search and landing either. I don't get it. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

There might be a question of recency. There is some suggestion of doing a renewal on One type and the other next time.(HP/LP) .This is almost getting over the top. OK if you are not recent on a TW and not confident do some practice in one with an instructor. That is good sense. (or combine it with an endorsement...ALTHOUGH..There is no such thing as a type (make ) endorsement officially with RAAus. You have the categories. In GA it is the same but SIMPLER. There are LESS of them even though you cover things like pressurisation, Turbine, (retract gear, Constant speed prop, are in both) There used to be group endorsements but now (unless I am out of date) it is all single engined aeroplanes below 7500Kgs.

Are we making all this a bit complex? I had a low flying entry in my logbook (signed off) notation in my GA training. I instructed spinning , low flying , aeros as an instructor.( amongst other things.)

 

Later as a senior RAAus instructor I taught LOW LEVEL. I now cannot get this endorsed on my RAAus cert unless I have a reason to use it, ie doing mustering or (I presume) in the course of teaching low level flight. (I'm not instructing at the moment) so there is no need and I haven't pursued it. I can only conclude that the low level thing is a bit of a contentious item. As far as I'm concerned IF you cannot safely fly low level you could not practice a precautionary search and landing either. I don't get it. Nev

Thank you Nev.