Power Lines.

[farri]

Recently we`ve had another fatal accident involving electricity power lines,this time it was a Glider and it appears that the pilot of the aircraft was very experienced.

 

Should the responsibility of avoiding electricity power lines rest solely with the pilot in command or do the power companies who install the lines have a responsibility also?

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

responsibility.

 

The installation of powerlines produces a hazard to aviation which varies on the location. Power companies are active to some extent in having awareness activities to aviation groups. This acknowledges that there is a hazard to aviation yet I understand that visibility "Balls" are charged for. There are too many deaths associated with planes contacting powerlines. The installer has to have some liability, surely. Nev

 

 

[Bandit12]

Surely governing bodies and electricity providers could get together and work out a way to increase visibility and reduce risk? It is in both parties interest to do so....

 

Oh wait, I should know better than to expect that a logical suggestion could work :black_eye:

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Power companies take no responsibility. If any balls or vizibility methods are put up they are charged for at very hefty prices. It's bad enough with semi government owned power but in Victoria and shortly in NSW, privately owned power providers will not accept ANY responsibilty or fault to do with any power infrastructure. If any lines/insulators/infrastructure is damaged in any way (Even if there was loss of life involved) the person doing the damage is charged for all damage/repair and anything else they can think of. I thought there might have been a change after the black Saturday inquiry but it appears not. The power providers can still run lines where ever they want to and to hell with anybody else.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I recently put some strips in at my property and at the end of both strips only at the southern end I decided to get some orange balls installed on the lines. I know they are there even though my Savannah is not completed yet to use the strips I would never forgive myself if someone either decided to land there or had to perform a emergency landing came to grief on the 11,000 volt SWER line...A single line is even more dangerous as you basically can't see them. I contacted Ergon and tried to get a reasonable price to get them put up basically they said tough luck you want them you pay for them. So just over $2400 later I now have 3 balls on the line. Two on the main strip and one on the cross strip. They have the hide to charge $600.00 just for the 3 plastic 300mm diameter orange/red balls there was a $1400 charge for the labour and almost $500.00 in capital expenditure fees.

 

The house is the next door neighbours and is about 150mtrs south of the power line it looks a lot closer than it really is. I was really dissapointed with Ergon's attitude but I had no option but to cough up with the total cost

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[flightygirl]

i know of a cheaper alternative to plastic balls, i see them everywhere in suburbia, just go to the tip and collect hundreds of pairs of old sneakers and swing them up there..

 

 

[Guest aussie carl]

i know of a cheaper alternative to plastic balls, i see them everywhere in suburbia, just go to the tip and collect hundreds of pairs of old sneakers and swing them up there..

rofl

 

 

[Exadios]

The installation of powerlines produces a hazard to aviation which varies on the location. Power companies are active to some extent in having awareness activities to aviation groups. This acknowledges that there is a hazard to aviation yet I understand that visibility "Balls" are charged for. There are too many deaths associated with planes contacting powerlines. The installer has to have some liability, surely. Nev

I imaging that the pilots that are most likely to come into proximity of power lines are crop dusters and glider pilots. In both cases I would guess that power lines figure in 5% or less of the accidents.

 

Crop dusters know where the power lines are and avoid them. So, if they have to rely on balls they have already screwed up. Also the wire cutter may handle the wire but a ball coming through the cockpit wind shield is a whole other matter.

 

In the case of glider pilots in between 2000' and 1000' AGL is when "your" paddock is picked. By 1000' AGL the pilot is committed to a particular paddock - one without any power lines in it. I don't think that visibility balls will be seen until it is too late.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I don't see why the power companies would have a responsibility, unless they install new ones in the over or undershoot of an existing runway!

 

Don't fly less than 500' AGL like you are supposed to and you'll be OK.

 

That only leaves the exceptional circumstance of a forced landing, which is tough luck. Or is anyone suggesting every single power line in Australia should have visibility markers on them? In that case a cheaper solution would be to add them to the GPS database.

 

We will never know what went through this glider pilot's head; he may well have been aware of the power line as he made his forced landing, but ran into it anyway simply because he had less left than he thought he had and didn't make it over...

 

 

[eightyknots]

That only leaves the exceptional circumstance of a forced landing, which is tough luck. Or is anyone suggesting every single power line in Australia should have visibility markers on them? In that case a cheaper solution would be to add them to the GPS database.We will never know what went through this glider pilot's head; he may well have been aware of the power line as he made his forced landing, but ran into it anyway simply because he had less left than he thought he had and didn't make it over...

The reality is that most glider landings are forced landings.

 

 

[Exadios]

The reality is that most glider landings are forced landings.

What?

 

 

[rage83]

As far as the power companies are considered all power lines from hard to spot SWER lines to full blown tower lines the area between the towers or poles are considered part of the structure. The attitude they have is u cant fly between or thru houses so why should u fly through or under power lines.

 

That came from one of the safety officers within the power company i work for.

 

There are a few more options out now as well not just the balls which can create more problems than they provide.

 

There is a cheaper option available within the company I work for. They are calling them aviation flags. Basically a slightly, and I say slightly, larger version of the bunting flags you might see at pubs.

 

Not sure that they will be that effective but its a cheaper alternative because they can be installed without the need for HV live line crews and EWP's.

 

I still think the key is situational awarness.

 

Rob

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I suspect anything that the power companies suggest or do to highlight powerline hazards is simply to cover themselves legally. The onus is on the pilot in command to "see and avoid". Powerlines are just another hazard - just like other aircraft, trees, towers, ...

 

That's why ab initio training covers takeoff and landing charts, and especially takeoff distance to clear 50ft obstacles.

 

 

[facthunter]

Being aware of Powerlines.

 

The reality of this is that powerlines are more often encountered by Crop dusting aircraft and usually later in the day. They would have surveyed the area before operating there but they still die.

 

My initial training for RAAus was in a Drifter, where my instructor did engine failures everywhere but in a couple of instances I only became aware of one of those single wire efforts to farmhouses at tree top height although I had been very careful to have a good look at height. You rarely pick out the wire. The posts are more visible, but they do not jump out at you.

 

IF you ever want to put down on a road, the powerlines are a great hazard where there are trees about as well. When you are flying along using a road for nav. see if you can see the wires from above. They are not very obvious. Nev

 

 

[farri]

how many RAA aircraft have takeoff and landing charts in the pilot operating handbooks (we call them P charts in GA)? How many RAA schools teach the use of these charts at the ab-initio stage?David your question is a valid one and I get that you are aware that there would be very few,if any,RAA aircraft with P Charts,(Performance Charts),so how or why would any RAA instructor teach the use of P charts?

 

I made my students aware that P charts didn`t exist for our aircraft and that the performance of the aircraft,unfortunately, had to be learnt by situational awareness and experience.

 

Back to topic.

 

Frank.

[farri]

David, in my opinion you are correct about P charts and it being a critical issue,I have always thought it to be.

 

I believe that regardles of type,there should be a P chart for the AC.

 

In the absence of P charts,I hope that all RAA schools teach about,(weight, density height, soft/hard surface, wind speed and direction, etc).

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

Take-off and Landing performance.

 

It's not treated as thoroughly, David and probably (I would suggest) is that there are a lot of variables, that would be hard to evaluate and quantify, in U/Ls environment.

 

At the airline level performance related factors are well assessed. Temp ,runway slope, overruns ,allowance for rolling line-up, pressure altitude. engine thrust parameters etc etc. Relates to accelerate-stop or climb gradient limitations from the chart.

 

Even if I am operating lighter GA at a high pressure altitude, I mentally give myself a decision point where if I have not acquired lift off speed I will abort the take-off even though the chart says it is OK. This is little more than an informed judgement, but it's got me out of trouble a few times. The engine might be just a bit down on power or a brake dragging , grass a bit long or ground a bit soft, or so on.

 

With ultralights a pilot should have a fair feel for the aircrafts performance so that the rate of acceleration on the day would give a fair indication of whether it would fly or not . This sounds a bit hit and miss but I have flown a drifter that had a mismatched prop and even though it had the right revs showing, I had to descend at about 200' on climb out to hold a safe airspeed . The only thing that gets you through safely is a familiarity with how a particular plane flies . This was the first time I had flown this particular aircraft so it's lack of performance surprised me. If aircraft can vary so much ( and they do as it depends on how they are rigged/ built). Then a "P" chart would only be a rough guide, in some circumstances.

 

Most claimed performance criteria are optimistic (as you know). An aircraft like some of the Jabiru models where there is not a lot of perfomance variation you might get a "P" chart to be fairly close to reality. All pilots should be familiar with density height/altitude effects in principle and weight and balance effect on performance and control. A pilot should also be aware that if you have a passenger and full fuel and a few other things that put you up to the max AUW and you will lift off a lot further down the runway and your best climb rate speed will be higher as will be your approach speed if you come back to land straight away. Enough for now. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree with that. Your approach is logical and consistent. The power companies cannot really justify putting up an almost invisible hazard and saying "not my problem". Doesn't fit in with any concept of OH&S. and being responsible. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

This situation is indicative of a great malaise that overlays our modern democracy. In the days of our fathers there were some infrastructure creation tasks that were determined as items for the "common good". Such things as roads, railways, telephony and electrification of the country. These things were never viewed as revenue raisers or even as sources of profit. More importantly they were essential elements in binding society together - neighbor to neighbor. Our embrace (enforced on us by the opinion makers in the media) of unbridled capitalism has resulted in these commonly held enterprises being sold at ridiculous opportunity prices to moguls so that over a human life span they return many times their original cost to "fat cats". And essential services, such as connection of rural blocks to electricity or marking of air navigation hazards, are costed at what the market is deemed willing to pay. For the most extreme examples of this behaviour look at the current proposal by NSW's puppet premier to sell generation capacity or on the other side of "the divide", the Howard govts sale of office buildings in the 90's for effectively 8.5x annual lease back charges. Liberal and Labor are identical when viewed from most angles. I hope not to have driven you away but I think it is important to analyse what they are doing to this country by manipulating our perceptions using propaganda. Regards, Don

 

 

[Yenn]

Don't blame CASA for the power lines, their remit is to make flying safe. If there are power lines at a strip their idea would be to close the strip. It is the politicians who have stuffed it all up, not only by passing stupid laws but by giving authori=ties like CASA unfettered control, which the pollies cannot change.

 

As the system in the USA is safer than here and there are more users over there with poorer weather, we should be lobbying the pollies to adopt the FAA system in it's entirety. That would make life simpler for CASA if they had to work as the FAA does and much better for aviation.

 

 

[eightyknots]

This situation is indicative of a great malaise that overlays our modern democracy. In the days of our fathers there were some infrastructure creation tasks that were determined as items for the "common good". Such things as roads, railways, telephony and electrification of the country. These things were never viewed as revenue raisers or even as sources of profit. More importantly they were essential elements in binding society together - neighbor to neighbor. Our embrace (enforced on us by the opinion makers in the media) of unbridled capitalism has resulted in these commonly held enterprises being sold at ridiculous opportunity prices to moguls so that over a human life span they return many times their original cost to "fat cats". And essential services, such as connection of rural blocks to electricity or marking of air navigation hazards, are costed at what the market is deemed willing to pay. For the most extreme examples of this behaviour look at the current proposal by NSW's puppet premier to sell generation capacity or on the other side of "the divide", the Howard govts sale of office buildings in the 90's for effectively 8.5x annual lease back charges. Liberal and Labor are identical when viewed from most angles. I hope not to have driven you away but I think it is important to analyse what they are doing to this country by manipulating our perceptions using propaganda. Regards, Don

I couldn't agree with you more! I am looking forward to the day when all this will be reversed (probably at considerable cost to the long-suffering taxpayers) so that the State or Commonwealth will own assets for the common good of the people. Electricity, water supplies and other infrastructure is for the common good and should never be sold, in my opinion. There is also the inter-generational inequity: our grandparents, parents and some of the older people on this forum have paid for all this infrastructure already, through taxes and as customers of those suppliers. By selling it off, the following generation (our children and grandchildren) won't get the benefit of this "investment" by earlier generations.

 

The whole NSW electricity sell-off is wicked. The electricity retailers being sold used to be County Councils: non-profit making LOCAL government bodies which were formed by asset transfers from smaller shire councils, etc. These were eventually corporatised in the 1990s but remained in full government ownership. Now they are being flogged off to pay for such stupid things such as the desalination plant at Kurnell, etc.

 

PHEW: I got that off my chest. I hope future governments will wake up to this madness.

 

 

[Methusala]

G'day Black Rod. The people (voters) get very little choice in deciding what they want - they generally get "what's good for them" served up like Macca's <You really want fries with that?>. Who would they vote for in the last election if they wanted immediate withdrawal from dangerous, costly imbroglios like Afganistan (remember the Khyber Pass?? or the Russkies?) BTW a majority DO even though no news organisations are in a hurry to promote that piece of news. Just to clear the air- I don't regard myself as a lefty. Never had much sympathy for communism, I've run a small business all of my adult life. I see uncle Joe and Chairman Mao as leftists. What I see in the west is rampant, hard line capitalism -greedy, blind and destructive. I do disagree that government, that is public companies run by independant boards ie TAA and CSL and Medibank to name 3, businesses are badly run. Telecom was also fairly innovative. Their job is not to produce fat profits but to act as a moderator against monopolistic "free"enterprise. There is room for a moderated ethic in human affairs - charities, friendly societies, co-ops and good neighbor organisations do not operate according to Friedmanite rules yet they are good and necessary in a fair society. Finally, I'm surprised that you would mention NSW in this arguement. Liberal and Labor have been as corrupt and ineffective as one another...I think it started with thg Rum Corps. Public assetts are not always sold at a "low" price... they are sold off with no regard for the price! I remember that before the sale of CSL it was all around that it would be a cash cow. Bah Humbug... Regards, Don

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Geez, you guys are starting to sound like Alf Garnett..."bloody Labor Government ..."

 

 

[Methusala]

Dear Black Rod, back to economics 101 for you and read John Maynard Keynes - anticyclical role of govt spending...discuss! Don

 

 

[Methusala]

All the best for 2011 Don and I intend to follow the inscrutable gentleman's advice religiously te he heh! I don't believe in more than one life so shall pass up the invitation to tediously continue the economics discussion. PS Do you wish to debate upwind vs downwind turns??? No, I didn't think so.