Jabiru down near William Creek

[Relfy]

Having just got back froim a trip out to Cameron Corner for the longest day event (trip report to come), paramount in my planning was the vast distance and other unique challenges presented currently. I took my 406 epirb, 5 litres of water each in three containers, shade material (small tarp), lighter, boiling pot, food (nuts etc) and adequate clothing.

 

Just as import though was planning. Engine/plane checked and double checked, route plotted via remote stations, reporting home of position every 50 miles (good old next g mobile phone good all the way right to the corner above 2000'), reporting in via uhf to the roadhouse from about 50 miles out, multiple sarwatch time holders at the corner and back home, adequate altitude (7500-9500 to enable glide to accessible areas given flooded areas and closed access roads), obtained destination strip report and a number of planned deviation locations (moomba, tibooburra etc). I also felt more secure knowing that a number of satellite tracking equipped desert motor bikes were in the area and contactable to reach any position we may end up in if we were to have an emergency.

 

All the planning came together into an awesome trip, and certainly reduces the stress levels when flying given that we were flying over some of the most remote terrain in aus at present due water everywhere preventing ground access. I read this story and it sends a chill up my spine. You simply don't want to be stuck out there without the right gear. You will die quickly.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

A Jabiru with RA registration is a 2-seater and I therefore can't see it meets the definition of an exempted aircraft.

A RA Jabiru is registered under CAO 95.55 which includes a specific exemption from subregulation 252A

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi John

 

Please pardon my confusion and thanks for the heads-up.

 

I'm frankly surprised that the CAR does not make a reference to the exemptions apparently presently provided by CAO's 95.32 and 95.55.

 

I'm even more suprised that a CAO (administrative direction) can ostensibly provide for an exemption from a requirement set out in a CAR which latter instrument is part of the legislative process of Parliament and therefore should over-ride anything in a CAO. No wonder John Brandon says "over the years, the CARs and CAOs have become somewhat of a mess. Where they are in conflict CARs take precedence over CAOs (and the Act takes precedence over the CARs). CASA believes they are ' ... overly prescriptive, ambiguous, disjointed, too reliant on exemptions, and difficult to interpret, comply with and enforce'."

 

Now I note the RAAus website says:

 

Exemptions common to 95.32 and 95.55 only

 

•Regulation 210. Restriction of advertising of commercial operations; insofar as advertising of flying training to qualify for a pilot standard specified in the RA-Aus Operations Manual is concerned

 

•Regulation 252A. Emergency locator transmitters,

 

Note the exemption to 252A dealing with carriage of emergency locator transmitters will be rescinded.

 

The rescision now seems most likely to arrive when the CASR parts 103 and 149 (the recreational aricraft provisions) are promulgated. And without wishing to pre-empt any inquiry, the situation reported to have existed with the Jab at Anna Creek may well hasten this.

 

But, as I said in my last post, irrespective of the legal requirements, one would hope that any aircraft flying up there any time, and especially in summer, would be carrying both an ELT and water.

 

kaz

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Please pardon my confusion and thanks for the heads-up.

No problem Kaz - if you don't fly RA the additional regulations in 95.10/32/55 are unlikely to have been required reading for you !

 

The rescision now seems most likely to arrive when the CASR parts 103 and 149 (the recreational aricraft provisions) are promulgated.

Since these have been work in progress for 10+ years I think its, sadly, more likely the changes will happen in a re-issue of the CAO's. But we can live in hope - a rationalisation is long overdue

 

one would hope that any aircraft flying up there any time, and especially in summer, would be carrying both an ELT and water.

Indeed so - my comments are purely about the regulations.

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Relfy, I would have done the same but where do we legally sit at that altitude? Is the need to have that height to glide to safety sufficient for us to breach the 5000' maximum height rule for RAA aircraft.David

 

CAO 95.32 & CAO 95.55 - 5.1 (a) (i)

only if it is flying over an area of land, or water, the condition, and

 

location, of which is such that, during the flight, the aeroplane would

 

be unable to land with a reasonable expectation of avoiding injury to

 

persons aboard the aeroplane

So flying above 5,000':-

 

• over flooded areas where a forced landing would be likely to cause injury would not be "breaching the 5,000' limitation, but rather in compliance with the above exemption".
   
   
  
• Where access roads are closed may be a little more tenouos, however if a forced landing there would cause the person to be injured by not being able to be rescued within the time that they had emergency life support supplies, could be argued to be in compliance.
   
   
  

 

 

The trouble with law is that often to find out the allowable interpretations, someone has to go to court to defend their actions. Also, wording and expression are critical. It isn't a matter of "breaching the 5,000' limitation", but rather whether the exemptions allowing flight above that altitude are operative under the circumstances.

 

I seem to recall another long discussion on whether, if you could go around the area that required you to exceed 5,000', that would make you non-compliant if you didn't avoid the tiger country. The obvious question is how far out of your way does a safer route have to be in order that using the 5,000' exemption would be considered compliant. As the CAOs are silent on the matter, one would suppose that this argument does not need to be considered.

 

P.S. I carry a PLB, even if I'm just doing circuits. It is part of my standard kit.

 

 

[Relfy]

Dave it really is an area that I wish could be clarified accordingly but i interpret from CAO 95.10 that I can fly above 5000 legally given the type of terrain and large areas of flooded country to be flown over. I am transponder equipped and monitor both ctaf and bris ctr frequencies, making the necessary calls. Any ability to improve the safety of a flight should be used and it would be great to see something decided on this soon re lifting the height restriction for RAA aircraft.

 

CAO 95.10

 

S. 5.1

 

Flight conditions

 

Subject to paragraph 7.5, the exemption given by subsection 3 in relation to an

 

aeroplane is further subject to the following flight conditions:

 

(a) the aeroplane may be flown 5 000 feet above mean sea level or higher:

 

(i) only if it is flying over an area of land, or water, the condition, and

 

location, of which is such that, during the flight, the aeroplane would

 

be unable to land with a reasonable expectation of avoiding injury to

 

persons on board the aeroplane; and

 

(ii) only if it is equipped with a radiocommunication system;

 

Note When flying at, or above, 5 000 feet, pilots are expected to make radio broadcasts

 

as set out in AIP.

 

Legally I believe we are fine and I couldn't see any criticism if you were challenged re doing so.

 

 

[ianboag]

Spider Tracks blows EPIRBS into the weeds ....

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

The whole 5000ft limitation is absurd when you are talking about remote area flying (Ibelieve it should be renamed the Lemming law) . From my perspective remote area is anything west of about 30kms of the east coast of Australia (or closer if the Great dividing range comes into play). My thinking is that I want as much time as possible to call for help and as much likelyhood that the 3G phone and or VHF will have coverage, let alone the fact that altitude directly translates into greater options. Laws of physics specify that altitude is good.....In my mind laws of physics gazump CAO's everytime.... Of course this is just a hypothetical post :) as I dont want to be the one that has to prove the law is outdated. I believe that it could be won but would require a substantial amount of $ to do so, something that most of us dont have spare for this purpose especially as the bureaocratic beast would be pooring an unlimited amout of $ from their side, again proving how equal access to the law is....Not...

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Maybe..if it was available and priced competitively...Looks good...Website extolls its virtue... then only offers 'coming soon' on price and availabilirty

http://au.findmespot.com/en/ Offers much of what Spyder Tracks does, at a fraction of the cost. Under $250 for the unit and around $165/year for service.

I am considering getting one.

 

 

[ianboag]

Spot uses GlobalSat - I gather there are significant holes in the coverage from time to time. Google it ....

 

Spidertrack uses Iridium which costs more and has much better coverage.

 

I've had one for 12 months or so. Total peace of mind flying anywhere. Reinforced by the calls from Search and Rescue when I was at the home airfield and had forgotten to log the unit off so it came up in the monitoring system as a sudden stoppage :-)

 

They have a stepped tariff structure - I'm on "up to 8 hrs/month" for about $A16. Overage costs about $4/hour. I use the "auto-on/manual-off" variant that they call Spiderwatch.

 

 

[sfGnome]

I am transponder equipped and monitor both ctaf and bris ctr frequencies, making the necessary calls.<<snip>>

Note When flying at, or above, 5 000 feet, pilots are expected to make radio broadcasts

 

as set out in AIP.

Time for a dumb question. I've gone looking a few times for these 'expected broadcasts as set out in the AIP', but all I can find is reference to the broadcasts around airfields. Can someone please point me to the section in the AIP that deals with broadcasts required above 5000?

 

 

[Derby]

Hi sfGnome, i don't think there is.

 

Rory

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Hi the listen watch on the area freq is maintained and from time to time you may hear IFR traffic or VFR traffic reporting to Center position track destinations and times, they may be advised from center no reported traffic known in your area, unaware of your aircraft, this is a good time to transmit a position and intentions as well as updating your QNH in the process as well as having your transponder on 1200 at all times switched to ALT , most radios have duel freq listen so use this for monitoring CTAF and AREA Freq, remembering to change area freq as you travel and the different CTAF freq FOR CERTAIN AIRFIELDS, i like to highlight these as a reminder easy mistake can happen like Bundy heaps of pilots have flown into there thinking hec these fellers don't talk on the radio ha ha.

 

 

[Planechaser]

Have heard of a Sat system marketed to adventure motorbike riders. Not sure of the name but I recon it works on Iiridium. Basic 'I'm ok' or S.O.S. buttons for about $150 a year, and a map logger linked to the internet for mid$200's.

 

Have heard of blokes on properties outside of phone coverage using these when they go working out the back on their own. Piece of mind for the one left at home, and pretty good insurance policy for the one out on his own; Just don't leave it on the dash when you go to pull that bore!!

 

As to water, would not even consider leaving the house paddock, ute bike or plane, without a three litre camelback(pretty impact resistant, just ask a dirt bike rider!!) minimum. Another 10lts in an insulated bottle in the ute of course, but a 10lt box/bladder in you kite has got to be the way to go.

 

The 3lts is for sipping, but if you put down/break down, 2lts per person per day is absolute starvation rations if your caught out in the open....

 

 

[kaz3g]

Time for a dumb question. I've gone looking a few times for these 'expected broadcasts as set out in the AIP', but all I can find is reference to the broadcasts around airfields. Can someone please point me to the section in the AIP that deals with broadcasts required above 5000?

There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers.... so I'll have a go :-)

 

There are no specific mandated calls applying to VFR traffic above 5000 in class G but:

 

you must fly at altitudes according to the ICAO cruising altitude rule;

 

monitor the area frequency;

 

establish contact with the relevant FIS if you become aware of IFR traffic that your flight may conflict with; and

 

it is advisable to call them anyway just to let them know what you are doing (type, call sign, position, height, track, intentions)

 

kaz

 

 

[jetjr]

I think both Spot and Spider tracks (and some others) rely totally on an outside paid service to deliver messages and alarms. Everything comes out as web based or SMS. Plenty to go wrong there Id reckon.

 

They didnt stack up for our company "remote working alone" equipment, Had to get a few EPIRBS.

 

 

[Planechaser]

Guess with EPIRB there is no "I'm ok, just running late" function.

 

The question is, are these things that work on the Sat phone system cheaper than running a Sat phone if you want to do the whole "I'm alright" thing?

 

No question that you would still be running an EPIRB, wether you had a Spot/Spider tracks or not for remote operations.

 

 

[kaz3g]

 

Pretty good answer Kaz, that is how I see it as well.David

Thanks, David. You know, I'm getting older every day (the alternative is something I'd rather not contemplate) and sometimes I have real doubts that I am actually pulling the right bit of knowledge out of the archives.

 

Last night I was reading the CAR's, and the CAO's after my boob on mandatory carriage of ELT in RA aircraft, and the thought struck me then that we as pilots are expected to learn and retain a hell of a lot about the laws of flying and not just the mechanics of it. Yet we have relatively few accidents causing injury or death.

 

Car drivers, on the other hand, learn a little law at the time they get their licence and many probably never read the road rules again though they go out onto the roads, break the law and even kill themselves with monotonous regularity. You would be surprised how many of them that I attempt to assist in court either "didn't know" or thought the law ought not really apply to them.

 

I think I'm becoming cynical

 

 

[sfGnome]

Kaz, David,

 

Thanks for the info. I'll stop hunting for where it's "set out in the AIP" :)

 

As for the changing rules, my wife and I got our bike licenses about 10 years ago, and we were staggered buy the number of changes to the road rules in the previous 25 years that we had no idea about. To give them their due, compared to the RTA/TAC/etc, Air Services and CASA seem pretty good at communicating the changes they're introducing.

 

 

[Relfy]

Thats the way I see it too Kaz, although I've never needed to report on the FIA freq as I've never come close to conflicting. I find that monitoring both local ctaf and fia freq's gives you a really good picture of whats going on around you.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Car drivers, on the other hand, learn a little law at the time they get their licence and many probably never read the road rules again though they go out onto the roads, break the law and even kill themselves with monotonous regularity.

Mile for mile and hour for hour, we kill ourselves seven times more often than folks in cars.

The old saying: "the most dangerous thing about this flight was the drive to the airport" is only true for RPT.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Mile for mile and hour for hour, we kill ourselves seven times more often than folks in cars.The old saying: "the most dangerous thing about this flight was the drive to the airport" is only true for RPT.

Which got me thinking.....

 

Are there any flight accident statistics available from RAA or CASA? It would be interesting to know what trends (if any) show up - for example, is it true about the oft quoted stat that you are most likely to have an accident/incident with approx 100 hours, or is that just another urban myth? What about accindent breakdown via aircraft type / engine type / age of pilot / experience of pilot / etc........

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Are there any flight accident statistics available from RAA or CASA?

ATSB publishes an annual report: http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1525905/ar2009016(3).pdf

Unfortunately, RA-Aus, for whatever reason, never seems to release any statistics other then the growing number of members and aircraft. :(

 

 

[Mazda]

There is no requirement for VFR broadcasts in Class G. Do be aware of the skeds for over water flights though. Broadcasting on IFR ATS frequencies may prevent calls required for IFR separation so it is not encouraged if it is just for the sake of it. You can always broadcast a PAN or MAYDAY call if required. If operating in remote areas, HF and UHF could be considered.

 

However you could lodge a flight plan, SARWATCH, or leave a flight note with a family member or flying school. You can SMS positions to people, use an iridium phone, use something like spider tracks, or a Satcom C inmarsat, and carry a beacon with GPS.

 

Remember you don't need to have such things mandated to be able to use them, although of course it does depend on how much money is available. If it is your one big trip, you may not have the money (or payload, or fuel) available to be able to do it. Recreational Flying was never supposed to be the same level of safety as RPT, otherwise no one could afford to fly at all.

 

The Bureau of Transport Economics has a lot of information about aviation stats, the ATSB has information, and CASA put out a brochure some years ago about the relative safety of adventure flights, private flights, single pilot charter, RPT, with the risk compared with that in a car. Private adventure flights were listed as being about the equivalent level of safety to being a pillion passenger on a motorcycle.

 

 

[Guest Kevin the Penniless]

In the 'old days' one could ring the local cops and tell them you'll contact them on arrival. No contact, they'd come looking. That was when we drove up and down the track in the 70s.