Russ Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Week or 2 back i was preplanning my flite from caboolture to atherton, ringing around arranging stopovers/fuels etc etc.......one stop/fuel point was to be ayr..........then coastal to ingham. That required me to get through townsville airspace.......no probs, i ring the lads at the control tower to run it past them, get permission etc.............couple of minutes later i get the Ok, with "requirements" i must observe ( radio in at certain point, be prepared to hold if asked......all in all real accomodating ) Now to the "Why"...............why do they talk zulu time to me......I must be at the reporting location at ??? zulu time.............what's wrong with Qld time.......got me buggered.
Guest davidh10 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Week or 2 back i was preplanning my flite from caboolture to atherton, ringing around arranging stopovers/fuels etc etc.......one stop/fuel point was to be ayr..........then coastal to ingham. That required me to get through townsville airspace.......no probs, i ring the lads at the control tower to run it past them, get permission etc.............couple of minutes later i get the Ok, with "requirements" i must observe ( radio in at certain point, be prepared to hold if asked......all in all real accomodating )Now to the "Why"...............why do they talk zulu time to me......I must be at the reporting location at ??? zulu time.............what's wrong with Qld time.......got me buggered. Just a guess, Russ, but given Brisbane Centre is controlling multiple timezones (including Daylight Saving in some parts of some zones), there is less chance of a slip-up if they deal with only one time and the people in each zone understand that. Set one of your timepieces to Zulu. The Garmin Aera GPS has a "numbers" screen in which I have set to display, Zulu time, local time, ETA, Sunset, Sunrise... Makes it easy to work back and forth between zulu and local time if needed.
motzartmerv Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 They are probably working on the fact that your an aviator, and used to reading and converting UTC every time you fly...;)
vme Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Russ .. Unfortunately, unless you hold a private pilots licence or better, you cannot enter controlled or active restricted airspace - irrespective of Air Traffic Control's assistance.
facthunter Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Zulu or GMT. is "standard" iin aviation. It eliminates confusion. What if you are crossing timezones?.eg. ALL your weather times are UTC which is the "old" Greenwich Mean Time. Nev
Guest basscheffers Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Russ .. Unfortunately, unless you hold a private pilots licence or better, you cannot enter controlled or active restricted airspace - irrespective of Air Traffic Control's assistance. Russ seems to be flying a Gyro, they probably have different rules. Can they enter, just like gliders and balloons can without a CASA PPL?
Russ Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Townsville and some others locations are under the control of RAAF, approach them right and they are very accommodating, been most helpfull in all other places every time. Zulu / GMT......yea understand all that no probs, was puzzled why they spoke zulu, rather than "local" time ( 24hr format ) me, pilot entering "their time zone" would adjust my time to suit. Must admit have never crossed time zones in a flight, and can see the rational for one time world wide........but i still like my 24hr local format, to which i adjust to. It's been some yrs since i spoke/transmitted to CASA control towers, but i seem to think they relate in 24hr local format................me memories fading with age tho. More knowledgable folks here will set me right.
vme Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Russ seems to be flying a Gyro, they probably have different rules. Can they enter, just like gliders and balloons can without a CASA PPL? From ASRA Guide to Flight Rules and Procedures for Gyroplane Pilots: Gyroplane operations are not permitted inside controlled airspace except that classified as Class E airspace. (CAO 95.12 and CAO 95.12.1)
Russ Posted January 20, 2011 Author Posted January 20, 2011 Russ .. Unfortunately, unless you hold a private pilots licence or better, you cannot enter controlled or active restricted airspace - irrespective of Air Traffic Control's assistance. That is incorrect............if relevant ATC allows entry, then it is Ok. "requirements" on board are needed..ie...radio, ability to "hold your position" if asked. I have asked and recieved entry into zones on numerious occassions, and will continue to ask as needed. The ATC guys have been extreemly helpfull, and always seem to be keen helping a "putt putt" machine through their space. I believe some caboolture flyers regularly get permissions to enter gold coast zone. ( transiting through etc )
motzartmerv Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Russ, Permission from the controller doesn't mean squat. It is still a breach, its not the controllers job to ensure you are compliant. Give CASA a call. Cheers
Russ Posted January 21, 2011 Author Posted January 21, 2011 Thanks guys, i will follow this up. ..............again thanks
biggles Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Russ , The guys in the Townsville control tower are very accomodating , as are the guys at several other bases that shall remain nameless . On a recent trip to Townsville , and looking for a suitable ALA with parking for a week or so , I checked with the control tower just in case they knew of some area that was not in ERSA etc. Their response was " come in here , we will vector you in as long as it during a quiet period of the day ". I mentioned that I was a RAAus pilot with no transponder, but that did'nt seem to concern them . Be aware that if " Murphy" appears , and something goes wrong , like you get out of control and damage some civilian or RAAF equipment or even worse cause personal injury , whoever provides your liability cover will walk away and leave you holding the baby . In an emergency its a different matter of course and all these conditions are waived , but our authority does not currently allow us access to Controlled airspace . Bob
winsor68 Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Maybe Airservices should should take CASA's place... they certainly seem to have a much better attitude. And these guys should know what is safe or not in their airspace... they are the experts with the hands on experience. Where does CASA come up with their ideas? Is it just the airlines exerting political pressure that decides aviation rules in Australia?
motzartmerv Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Yea, its not the go. I know of it happening a lot, and its always the same story, "oh, i talked to the controller, or I called up on the freq and got a clearance. While the controller may be helpful and let you in, technically it is still a breach of CTA. The controller won't ask you if your a PPL holder, he will be assuming YOU know the rules and that you are compliant.
winsor68 Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Oh they know alright Motz... they just won't let CASA know they know if you get nicked... lol
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Correct, Townsville controllers are RAAF. In fact one of them in the past was an active trike pilot who flew from Montpelier (outside Class C) to work in the tower, in his trike into Class C, pretty much on a daily basis. (maybe he cleared himself I don't know) He did fit a transponder, and I don't recall if he had a PPL or not. I myself have been cleared through Townsville Class C several times, without even requesting it. I did a pretty regular commute up to Ingham, same time every Monday morning, and back again same time Friday arvo. I always flew the same route (VFR lane outside class C, around the back of Townsville). I would always call and request traffic as I transitted the Bluewater training area. Over the years I'm sure they got to know me, and my call sign, pretty well. One day,(just happened to have the Mrs on board) at my normal Bluewater call point he replied: "Would you like a clearance today direct through Class C, to Montpelier ?..... I replied "than would be nice". He gave me a squark code, and a height to maintain, and away we went. He knew it would cut probabily 15 Minutes off my normal route. Now as it happens I do have a PPL, but it is US FAA issued, (lifetime,Worldwide if you are current). I just renewed it with the FAA in Oklahoma, and yes it would be admissable in court. I just got sick of the Bull**** here to bother converting it to the Australian equivilent, I don't fly GA much anymore anyway, but I do maintain the license because it's something I earned, and I'm proud of that. And believe me I do have the skills to transit Class C safely, having trained and flown in busy Californian airspace for a couple of years in GA............... But....he didn't know that !! Townsville controllers have got pretty flexable I believe, for a couple of reasons. There are only two options around TVL Class C if you want to go North, or South. 1. Way out to sea at a low altitude (big time risky). 2. Fly the inland VFR route which is not too bad, but can get risky if the winds are big, or the clouds low, or both. Coupled with that are several closely controlled military restricted zones, immediately adjacent to that route. These are often live-fire zones with F18s, BAE Hawks, large artillery, morters, all types of choppers etc, you get the picture. The troops train in this area just before going to Afganistan. Even if you remain outside Class C (OCTA) they will often still ask you to acknowledge that you are aware of the position of these areas. Controllers are doing what they need to do to keep everything, and everyone safe, by making command decisions, and being flexable, in the US FAA, and worldwide standard fashion. It is a real shame CASA and RAAus for that matter, can't keep up ..........................................................Maj...
Guest davidh10 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 No wonder CASA grumbles about three (3) CTA violations per day which is the current rate at which they say these incursions are occurring. When asked the reasons, they say that some are accidental (one example of an aircraft with faulty altitude indication) and some are deliberate. There are also those who are habitual in their deliberate breaches. Apparently a flying school had its AOC pulled for just such a habitual breach (no name given), and its CFI had his/her license canceled. CASA also indicated that regardless of whether controllers clear someone who is not permitted in CTA, entry is a breach. They didn't have stats on Rec vs GA violations. This information was related at one of the regional CASA safety seminars that I attended (Wangaratta, late last year).
Guest Crezzi Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 I suspect the figure of 3 VCA/day would be rather higher if the transits of gyros & recreational aircraft by non-PPL holders were included. If these have clearance from ATC, I don't think they would be technically classed as a violation even though its illegal. Cheers John
Guest Crezzi Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 "A Violation of Controlled Airspace (VCA) is the unauthorised entry of an aircraft into airspace that requires a clearance to enter ..." http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/training/flyingaround/docs/safe_operations_fs.pdf it will setback recreational aviation many years...if not extinguish it....'thank you' one and all for the service u are doing for us all. Cheers John
Russ Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Ok..........am trying to copy some mails here re this matter............. I shot off a mail to a chap at casa i know ( anything re recr flying goes over his desk ) Yea ******, am familiar with those regs.............what threw me was regs say no............but control guys said yes to enter their area. Was then thinking they can "over ride" regs at their discretion, in cases like mine......ie......transit through only. And in my case, i particularly made the point to them i was piloting a GYRO. Ok, so it's a no. Know for a fact, that many rec flyers get permissions to transit same zones australia wide, and have been doing so for yrs. ( gyros and ultralites ) Perhaps there is a case to revisit those regs especially now, when there are some very professional rec machines/pilots buzzing about. G'day there ******................need your clarification.... If i need to transit through "controlled air space" and the relevant control tower gives me permission ( townsville ) is that Ok. I approached them some months back, to transit my gyro through, they asked re radio, yes i have, and could i "hold" if needed for a period, yes i can. They then agreed to usher me through when i called up at a certain reporting point, and at a specific time.............great. A fellow aviator, tells me............no way russ, you cannot enter these zones, they are wrong to let you............so *******, what's the go. thanks mate................russ side note........********l tells me many caboolture flyers transit through sunshine coast control zone with prior approvals, no probs at all. again.............thanks Yes Russ, it sometimes happens like that but it isn't kosher. The thing is that when a pilot requests a clearance the ATC people have no real way of knowing if they are qualified to transit the airspace or not. It is up to the pilot to know what he is entitled to ask for. Mind you, you should always meet the requirements but that doesn't mean you can't work toward change through the proper channels. "Everything changes and nothing lasts forever". Best regards
facthunter Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Transitting these zones is a much safer procedure than the alternate routes often. It would be a pity to kill the opportunuty IF there is a way. Nev
kaz3g Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 ...a bit like turning up at the anzac parade pretending u served.... No... it's not like that at all! kaz
Russ Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Ditto there kaz....................permission was sought.............and given, it is now apparent that the powers that be, know it's occuring........however it's not legal to enter. Now we all know the legals of it. Re read the last para of the mail ....note it says " things can change", go through the right channals...da da da...........now that's good news in my view.
dazza 38 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think that with Steve Tizzard working with us, things will change, it just takes time.
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