RA-Aus Flight Training Exmemption - Jandakot!

[sseeker]

Today my friend sent me a link to the latest RA-Aus school in WA which is located at Jandakot. Cloud Dancer Pilot Training are currently doing RA-Aus pilot certificates and will apparently be conducting GA training very soon. The school operates SportStars (both GA and RA-Aus) with a CTSW in GA rego (I think) They are the West Australian dealers for Evektor and Flight Design. They have received their exemption from CASA to operate in Class D airspace. I'm heading down for a brief on CTA tomorrow and check out their facilities, aeroplanes etc... Will keep you posted.

 

Just thought some people from Perth would be interested, especially if you're sick of driving 1hr+ to get to the aerodrome you fly from.

 

He has given me these *approximate* rates which he gave me over the phone and he wasn't 100% sure of them so don't hold me for it. All rates are wet.

 

$250/hr Dual

 

$180/hr Solo

 

Very steep but I suppose he has his costs and they'd be much higher than a Class G aerodrome.

 

Both include the $25 landing fee and it's $3 per touch and go. He also told me that all pilots need a Class 2 medical and estimated it'd take me 3hrs of flying to reach my CTA endorsement to fly at Jandakot.

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Only 3 hours of flying required for a CTA endo? Seems a bit short. RA pilots don't have that CTA privilege yet - you must mean a GA endorsement of some sort?

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Burbles,

 

It's not really an 'endorsement' (he told me it was CTA though) however I seem to remember Basscheffers saying something about you being restricted to the aerodrome you learn from because of the special exemption conditions. So really it's not a 'true' CTA endorsement, you're restricted to the aerodrome you learn from. In this case, Jandakot.

 

-Andrew

 

EDIT: I also have about 8hrs GA at Jandakot and I also study aviation at school and have been over the procedures many times with a Grade 1 instructor. I told him this and he quoted me ~3hrs.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

The wording of these exemptions seems to be the same everywhere and is very ambiguous; "students or pilots under the control of the operator." Dave Forsyth always took that to mean anyone trained by him and hiring from them was under his control and CASA never has complained yet. However, he only extends this privilege to ab-initio students, not trained pilots wanting to come in and hire.

 

Read the wording of the exemption and you'll see it's clear as mud what is and isn't allowed! I hear Mick Poole always took them to mean for training only, but I don't think it is his call as this exemption is between the school (always an existing GA school) and CASA. (And obviously has not taken any action)

 

As owner of the aircraft I am more of a grey area as I just turn up and go...

 

But it does not limit which CTA you can fly in, so as long as the "under control" rule is satisfied, I guess. That means I have been trained for and do fly through class C too. I have not been trained in Class C CTR, i.e.: landing at a class C aerodrome. I'll do that when I get my PPL.

 

Jandakot is an expensive aerodrome! Parafield does all their billing through AvData and as such cannot be bothered to charge at all for the few RA aircraft that fly in - even the ones based there.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

To clarify: I am certain the exemption does not allow you to go there, learn CTA and then go back to another aerodrome and fly your own aircraft through CTA as that in no way, shape or form would put you "under the control of the operator".

 

Unfortunately, I have heard of people doing just that, though I do not know them personally.

 

 

[sseeker]

Bas,

 

Flying in/out of Jandakot isn't a worry for me, flying in Class C is and I don't think I'll ever take 'advantage' of that small clause in the exemption. He told me I could go through Class C airspace as long as I was trained by him. I asked him if I needed a PPL and he was a bit wary and said ATC probably wouldn't like it if you went solo through there without a PPL. Flying through Class C doesn't really seem all that exciting to me apart from the fact you can fly around the city. I know the procedures of Jandakot back to front because of what I've learned at school and through practically flying there. The briefing today just summed it all up and cleared up the Class D changes. I sat in the SportStar and boy what a nice aeroplane! SOOO much more room than the Gazelle and Jab, very nice bubble canopy and a very sleek design, I love it and I haven't even flown it yet! Is that possible?

 

Also, I understand the exemption is only for people being trained under the exemption holder in their aircraft. It's not for fly in/out operations

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I believe that the CTA exemptions would apply to "supervised" solo students undergoing RA training - i.e. for circuits and training area solos. That's how Camden operated when it was GAAP - not sure what happens now.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Everyone's interpretation seems to be different. The exemption clearly states "students or pilots", not just "students". It mentions nothing about "supervised", just "under the control of", whatever that may mean.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Bass,

 

"Under the control of" is analogous to "supervised" - a CFI or senior instructor deems a student (pre-GFPT) or pilot (pre-PPL) competent to handle the procedures in controlled airspace and permits them to undertake a specified flight without passengers for training only.

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Burbles,

 

I don't think that interpretation is correct. "Under the control of" seems as though they're saying you must be under the control of the flying school... Probably meaning that the school can accept/reject your booking, if they say yes it would technically be saying, "Yes you can fly." I highly doubt that carriage of passengers is prohibited. I am yet to see the exemption for Jandakot though, are these publicly available?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I can't find the one for Cloud Dancer yet, but this is the one for Forsyth at Parafield: http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2010L00143

 

 

[vme]

Herewith Cloud Dancer exemption:

 

http://HTTP://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib91212/casaex104.pdf

 

 

[sseeker]

Thanks for that vme.

 

So basically after reading over that, I can fly into Class C with that schools aeroplane as pilot in command as long as I've received the appropriate training (stickered in logbook) and I takeoff and land at Jandakot? Although now the question is, does the transponder comply with the regulations it needs to. All I know is the aeroplane is maintained by a LAME (and L2 I suppose)

 

-Andrew

 

I should probably clarify: I don't ever *want* to fly through Class C in an Ultralight as I have no use for it. I just want to know if I *could* under the exemption

 

 

[flyinghigh]

Thanks for that vme.So basically after reading over that, I can fly into Class C with that schools aeroplane as pilot in command as long as I've received the appropriate training (stickered in logbook) and I takeoff and land at Jandakot? Although now the question is, does the transponder comply with the regulations it needs to. All I know is the aeroplane is maintained by a LAME (and L2 I suppose)

I doubt that the intention is to allow operations or training in Class C here. I would have thought that as there is no CTA endorsement currently available in RAAus, you are only being exempted for operations and training in/out of Jandakot (Class D) airspace, including solo student flight. There may be some Class C operations training, but at the end of the day, the sticker only covers you for operations in the school aircraft, which is quite limiting.

 

Regards transponder, the exemption states it must be calibrated per regulations.

 

I wish these guys every success at Jandakot, they are definitely putting RAAus into the spotlight amongst GA training, and it can only serve to improve our organisation's visibility. And if/when they also offer GA training, it will likely provide an easier path for all to move onto PPL and beyond in a proven environment (without the 'we don't recognise your training' attitude that exists among some Jandakot operators).

 

 

[sseeker]

Flew the SportStar today, what a nice aeroplane. I thought the Jabirus controls were touchy, this is ultra touchy! I've only gotta do another hour of flying and the CFI will sign me off, now for the Class 2 Medical and the long wait for the certificate

 

-Andrew

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

Does anyone know if you can do a BFR at YPJT under this exemption, without doing the medical? No need for soloflight for a BFR as there will always be an instructor on board.

 

 

[fatmal]

You probably can do a BFR at YPJT - as you say there is no need for a solo flight. Give Adrian (CFI) a call on 0422 697 156. Cloud Dancer are in Maule drive - left at the big roundabout (away from RACWA), down past Singapore Airlines College, follow the road round to the left then right, and Maule Drive is first on the right - they're about halfway down on the left (not well signposted).

 

I did my Nav training with them, and picked up a YPJT CTA endorsement in the process. It's a busy place!

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

Thanks fatmal, I'll give them a call. Just trying to see if it will be cost effective to do it as I am based in Perth and usually have to drive about 2 hours to get to my usual airfield. I just want to get current again so could be a few hours just to get back up to scratch.