Non standard wings

[AzharFly]

Hi,

 

Just a thought here. Is it possible to put a different manufacturer's wing on a trike?

 

Bearing in mind the wing loading and wing surface area factors are matched to your engine capacity etc.

 

Has anyone done this or given it some though? How would this affect the registration?

 

Azhar

 

 

[prwood]

Yes it can be done. My flying buddy did it with his Quasar. When the sail died, he got a replacement cost from the Pegasus guys in UK. It was somewhere in excess of $5000!! So he found a low hour edge wing complete with sail & bought it for $1000. He then made minor modifications to the hang bracket & he was in business flying again. The only drawback was that he could not register it under 95.32 as a 2-seat aircraft so it was registered as a single seater under 95.10. RAAus had no problems registering the trike. He recently sold it without any problems.

 

Regards Pete

 

 

[AzharFly]

Change of wing

 

Hi Pete,

 

Yes same problem. Just new sails alone (don't need yet) from P&M in UK is $5000 inc shipping. A new Wizard III wing complete with shipping from Perth is I think $6,500.

 

But it gets boring up there alone. I would still want to legally carry a passenger. I guess it can't be done if you still need the spare seat.

 

Azhar

 

 

[prwood]

Hi Azhar,

 

You might like to try lobbying the RAAus. I think at one point Rod was trying this approach & was met with a reponse along the lines of " It should be possible to register as 95.32 with different wing, we will check it out." That was all he heard & put it in the too hard basket. I reckon it would be worth trying again.

 

Regards Pete

 

 

[AzharFly]

BMAA

 

Hi Pete,

 

Hmm, I might see what the UK BMAA says about this. But then I doubt so much that UK microlight owners would have such similar problems unless they fly non European microlights.

 

If I get any news, I'll post it in this thread.

 

Azhar

 

 

[TechMan]

Hi,Just a thought here. Is it possible to put a different manufacturer's wing on a trike?

 

Bearing in mind the wing loading and wing surface area factors are matched to your engine capacity etc.

 

Has anyone done this or given it some though? How would this affect the registration?

 

Azhar

Aircraft operating under CAO95.32 shall be maintained and operated in accordance with the RA-Aus Tech and Operations Manuals.

 

Section 3.5.2 of the Tech Manual stipulates that aircraft operating under CAO95.32 cannot be modified without CASA or CAR35 approval.

 

Therefore, it is not permissible to put a different wing onto a base if:

 

a) The wing is not defined in the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the aircraft, or;

 

b) There is no Engineering Order signed by a CAR35, or approval from CASA, to allow the fitment of a wing, not mentioned in the type certificate, to the base.

 

As it is a known common practice that weight shift pilots change wings, it is very difficult to control. It is however, easier to inspect in flying school operations, and your insurance company (if you have insurance) will no doubt check the aircraft and find the smallest detail they can to get out of paying for the damage.

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Unfortunately the only other wings approved for the Gemini trike are the Flash 1 and the Flash2 - you would be very lucky to find either of these in Aus (& I wouldn't bother with an F.1 even if you did). AFAIK Mainair never approved the Blade wing for that trike & it probably wouldn't be any cheaper anyway.

 

You could look for a 2nd hand sail in the adverts on the BMAA website - there are lots of Alphas in the UK & they do get written off periodically. Bit of a risk buying it unseen & although they don't get as much sun any sail of that age has got to be highly suspect.

 

The convention for trikes is that the rego goes with the wing so if you change that it should be reregistered. Just replacing the sail wouldn't count though.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[ZULU1]

Replacement wings

 

Over here in South Africa, I have seen many wings swopped around with really no hassles, the latest trends seem to be the topless wings as they stash away easier. But they seem to put anything on whatever ! Its the wing thats actually registered and not the cart. Just the hang brackets that change to suit the individual assembly. I am unsure of the RAA rules but here it seems to be fairly slack and have heard of no problems. A new type just has to fly the 40 hrs in the patch before approval (except approval in a European/Australian/New Zealnad/US/Canada type territory) and not some low budget African state !! So the answer is they seem to work, as long as the prop clears the wing when its fully tilted back and at extremities of bank. I believe the regallo design is extremely forgiving in its application.

 

I have flown a topless wing on a Raptor and considered it to be the closest thing to flying a Fork lift truck possible, not actually what trike flying is really about.

 

Ciao Paul

 

 

[AzharFly]

'Topless Wings'

 

Hi Paul,

 

Just curious as to what these so called 'topless wings' are.

 

It looks like my hands are tied up here with changing to different manufacturer's wing etc. Shame, but that's progress I guess!

 

Azhar

 

 

[AzharFly]

Time to be SHOCKED!!!

 

Hi

 

Earlier in this thread I was asking about placing a local wing on a European trike to save considerable money without affecting safety or performance etc.

 

The answer was most definitely not!

 

But wait.....

 

Look what some chap has done to his Airborne Edge....

 

Now this is radical. I don't think RAAus would want to know this aircraft for sure!

 

Azhar

 

 

 

[ZULU1]

Topless Wings

 

Azhar, these wings are designed for people with little hangar space, the plane i flew had a Aeros wing from the Ukraine, it was very substantial and really heavy.. They remove the king post as this effectively only holds the wing whilst on the ground, luff lines are gone and totally flat on the upper surface. There are a few others around the Globe making them. I was not impressed as to me a trike should be nice and light in the pitch and roll.

 

I will try to find a picture and post it for info.

 

Ciao Paul

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

http://www.aeros.com.ua/structure/trike/prfTL_en.php

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Couldn't help but notice that the AIrborne Edge X trike base in post#10 converted to a gyro also has what appears to be a Rotax-912 donk fitted. That and a larger fuel tank have been the dream of many an Edge X trike owner. I myself given in to Airborne's marketing and am updating.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Which trike are you updating too ?

 

 

[Air Creation]

That and a larger fuel tank have been the dream of many an Edge X trike owner. I myself given in to Airborne's marketing and am updating.

Maybe you wanna fly an Air Creation machine... plenty of fuel capacity..68ltrs, very economical and the wings have German DULV/QRU Pitch Test Certification too..!

So many reasons.. always more choices... satis-fly your passion..!

 

Chris:yin_yan:

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi John,

 

I think your question is already answered since I last posted on this thread. XTS-912.

 

Back in May I had a lovely XC flight from Temora -> Cowra -> Our strip near Goulburn - see the August Soaring Australia mag.

 

Chris,

 

I had poured over the Aircreation website in the months before placing my order with Airborne, but alas still came to the conclusion to stick with Airborne this time due to pricing and accessability of the factory being 130kms each way from home.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest Perry]

Hiya Chris,

 

Nice to see a Tanarg owner here - refreshing!

 

Maybe you wanna fly an Air Creation machine... plenty of fuel capacity..68ltrs, very economical and the wings have German DULV/QRU Pitch Test Certification too..!

If your 68 litres gets you down, you can try the 78ltr tank of the DTA VII. Mine seems to outlast my bladder and we have recently turned in cross country trips of 6hrs without worry. My VII Dynamic 450 wing is also DULV certified and the strutless mast on the base has been tested to well over 2 tonnes dynamic loading.

 

I have just received my fold away 20litre bladder jerry can from Lazslow in SE Qld - now I can ferry ulp to my trike for refeuling in out-of-town locations.

 

Regards

 

Perry

 

 

[Lizzard]

Time to be SHOCKED!!!Hi

 

Earlier in this thread I was asking about placing a local wing on a European trike to save considerable money without affecting safety or performance etc.

 

The answer was most definitely not!

 

But wait.....

 

Look what some chap has done to his Airborne Edge....

 

Now this is radical. I don't think RAAus would want to know this aircraft for sure!

 

Azhar

 

I know this is and old thread but I have just scored a gyrocopter with brand new blades and a poor frame .

 

i would like to make contact with the owner of this trike gyro as I have been toying with this for some time

 

Lindsay

[kasper]

Ancient thread but as its been jolted back into life I have read it ...

 

UK BMAA - you can get mods to put non standard wings across between airframes - there are nice 582 mainair trikes flying around with much nicer raven wings all approved. In the UK the wing is the 'aircraft' for registration not the trike so chat with the trike maker.

 

OZ - very mixed bag and from the thread clearly the RAA Tech office have been making it up as it goes - sorry but some of what is written in this thread as actual fact in OZ is actually illegal and RAA should not have registered it.

 

OZ is fundamentally different from pretty much the rest of the world - here it is the TRIKE that is the aircraft and not the wing so to meet the various home built rules consider the TRIKE as the aircraft.

 

95.10 you cannot legally register a factory built 2 seat 95.32 aircraft as 95.10. full stop. do not try it. CASA will come down on you like a ton of bricks if they find out. please talk to RAA Tech to sort out your mess if you have a 95.10 with a factory built or factory kit TRIKE that has EVER been registered as 95.32 - any trike that was built in a factory after 1990 can never meet the requirements of being privately built under 95.10.

 

Nothing stopping you building a new trike and adding a factory built wing and calling that 95.10 as the OZ definition of the aircraft is the trike not the wing but the trike must not have been factory built or even home built from factory kit and put into 95.32. The only kits allowed under 95.10 after 1990 are 95.10 specific kits ... of which there are NONE.

 

Fundamental issue is that once its been registered 95.32 the trike cannot become 95.10.

 

95.32

 

- factory built LSA - must only use factory approved wings on trike or one approved by approved engineer

 

- factory built non-LSA - (kit or fly away) not as clear - 95.32 dose not prohibit modification of a factory built - and a different wing is a modification - but the manufacturers and RAA are clear that they do not allow it - probably without legal basis but it will be a fight

 

- amateur built from materials (not kit) -same as factory built kit under CAO95.32 on ability to mod and you have less issues with RAA as there is no factory saying do not do this

 

These are the legal reqs - then you get the RAA tech and ops manual - bit of a mish mash of inconsistent requirements in there - and where the tech manual requires something that is not legally required then you are in for a fight

 

eg legally the CAO is silent on mods for home built or kit assembled 95.32 trikes ... but tech manual will try and limit you - Darren B at RAA may be in for some fun if he ever actually reviews the trike fleet and the rules

 

 

[kasper]

Aircraft operating under CAO95.32 shall be maintained and operated in accordance with the RA-Aus Tech and Operations Manuals.Section 3.5.2 of the Tech Manual stipulates that aircraft operating under CAO95.32 cannot be modified without CASA or CAR35 approval.

Therefore, it is not permissible to put a different wing onto a base if:

 

a) The wing is not defined in the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the aircraft, or;

 

b) There is no Engineering Order signed by a CAR35, or approval from CASA, to allow the fitment of a wing, not mentioned in the type certificate, to the base.

 

As it is a known common practice that weight shift pilots change wings, it is very difficult to control. It is however, easier to inspect in flying school operations, and your insurance company (if you have insurance) will no doubt check the aircraft and find the smallest detail they can to get out of paying for the damage.

 

Chris

Section 3.5.2 of the Tech manual only applied to 101.25, 95.25 and 101.55 aircraft not 95.32. This is the one area where the tech manual distinction between maintenance and modification is critical - you are required to maintain 95.32 airframes in compliance with the requirements of the tech manual but modifications are not subject to the tech manual and the tech manual is silent on them.

I am dreading the new tech manual because I suspect that we will see a one-size-fits-all applied across all aircraft types under all CAOs ...

 

 

[pylon500]

Why couldn't you put together an assortment of parts for a two seater, and register it as a 19.xxxx?

 

Conversely, what rules do HGFA use to register trikes?

 

 

[kasper]

Why couldn't you put together an assortment of parts for a two seater, and register it as a 19.xxxx?Conversely, what rules do HGFA use to register trikes?

19- reg is under CAO95.55 and ALL weightshift are excluded from reguistration under CAO95.55

You must if its weightshift come in under 95.32 and you will end up with 18- reg (under the new RAA system)

 

Under 95.32 assemble from part options its how much are you assembling and how much are you manufacturing to fall under or avoid falling under:

 

para 1.1 "was assembled from a kit supplied by a commercial manufacturer"

 

para 1.4 "the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by a person who undertook the construction project solely for the person’s own education or recreation"

 

Given the RAA are holding to the trike being the 'aircraft' for weightshift under both 95.32 and 95.10 the tests apply to the trike and not the wing

 

Now para 1.4 is the same test of 'fabricated and assembled as he 19- reg stuff under 95.55 ... but how much of the trike do you want to 'fabricate' how much are you going to rob from an existing airframe and still meet the requirements ??? same old issue of not registering a Cessna 150 under 95.55 apply here.

 

Me, I would either:

 

- convert a two seater airframe to single seat with new/cut down base tube, mast and front strut and change the engine to something bigger - trade my passenger for engine

 

- take an older style trike stay two seater change my mast, engine frame and engine to give better rear seat comfort and utilise the extra weight allowed under 95.32 subject to the wing

 

eg I know I have two wings here that have been static load tested as a design to 475kg (420kg suspended) but the certified trike/wing combo is limited to 367kg because there is a lower than OZ stall limit to be met and no undercarriage suspension on the original ... I have a set of sprung undercarriage legs from a later model with hydralic brakes, I also have a 100hp engine and engine frame from a later model that could be bolt on to a replacement base tube/mast and seat frame ... altogether about a 50:50 of mix-n-match:manufacture/remanufacture to get the trike up and running and that would fit within para 1.4 of 95.32.

 

 

[daza]

I was once advised that a wing swap between 95.32 trikes would be a major mod that would not be difficult to register, IF it was done with BOTH manufacturers approval.

 

The problem with this is that Airborne have been reported to have stated that they will not approve any wing swaps outside of their factory options.

 

Daza

 

 

[kasper]

I was once advised that a wing swap between 95.32 trikes would be a major mod that would not be difficult to register, IF it was done with BOTH manufacturers approval.The problem with this is that Airborne have been reported to have stated that they will not approve any wing swaps outside of their factory options.

Daza

And that would be why my trikes and wings are all from UK, France or self design and build. I can mix n match my 95.10 trike with any of the 5 wings I have and its just 1 registration on the trike - and equally I have 3 engines/props and engine frames for the same trike ranging from 40-100hp so its not really a surprise that all electrics and fuel lines on the airframe have quick disconnects at the mast base ... roll the trike under a hoist, 3 quick disconnects and 2 bolts and the engine/prop are off and the next one can go on - its actually under 20 min to change an engine over if I am in my workshop.

Ultimate freedom is simple in theory - but I still have hells own getting a simple weight certificate to get the regn finalized with RAA ... just wish I had more time away from the office/farm to get it sorted. Cest la vie

 

 

[pylon500]

Sounds like you're trying to own two or three trike under one rego?