Light aircraft missing

[Guest ozzie]

If you can't afford a ELT/ PRB then you can't afford a expensive parrot!

 

Seem to remember being taught never to leave the vehicle ( or aircraft) if stranded as well.

 

With all the crap weather that was around the area they came down in, they may have been luckier than they realise.

 

 

[flying dog]

Yeah, interesting.

 

Good to hear they are ok too.

 

Not wanting to take sides on what happened, but would like to point out somel things:

 

Lilfe is a learning curve.

 

Luckily they "got away" with what happened THIS TIME.

 

Only they know if they will ever do it again.

 

As for the rest of us:

 

"We" need to look at what happened and possibily re-think what we would do.

 

Although the arguement of "poor/no mobile coverage" was mentioned, it seems strange not to be able to think about the possible problems if the big fan stops spinning and you are forced to land.

 

ELB/EPIRB or a mobile with known coverage.

 

Either one or better still: Both.

 

Satellite phones *may* be a good idea too.

 

WRT the ELB/EPIRB.

 

Well, one idea for consideration is that the plane owner has one and whom ever uses the plane takes it.

 

I think what may be good is if the people involved post an HONEST review of what happened saying both the good and bad things that happened leaving out personal bias and be as factual as possible.

 

This would be most helpful to many people.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Your right Dog, life is a learning curve. Hence the reason we have endorsements/exams/test's/ evaluations etc..to learn...before we set off into the wild blue.

 

 

[flying dog]

Merve, sure. But I am not going to tell people what to do

 

If they want to break the ruled it is their choice.

 

All I can do is see what they did and assess the situation and make sure I understand what happened.

 

Now, let's review what has been said:

 

1 - RAA planes are (for now) not required to carry EPRIBS/ELB.

 

2 - I haven't read what EXACTLY happened. Was it an EMERGENCY landing or an un-expected/scheduled landing?

 

All I have read here is SPECULATION of what happened.

 

3 - Was there a REAL emergency? Sure walking 50 Km is not a good idea, but the question stands.

 

Until we know what happened, I am not going to say they did anything wrong.

 

It was THEIR choice not to have/use an ELB. Likewise with the phone. They are alive.

 

Would I do the same? Well, that's my choice. That isn't what is being discussed. As I said at the start: I can use the information they give to better my knowledge and choices I make.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Did I say anyone did anything wrong?... I just quoted the standard procedure in a forced landing..

 

 

[flying dog]

"Hence the reason we have endorsements/exams/test's/ evaluations etc"

 

None of those were really broken either.

 

This information is given to us and we process it as we see fit.

 

The "Trick" is knowing how/when to apply this knowledge in varying situations.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, well sometimes the "as we see fit" varies from person to person.

 

The unfortunate thing is that people risk life and limb to search for downed aircraft. Its not just your own life that your risking, its the lives of countless others who brave marginal weather to find you and bring you home to your loved ones. Dead or alive. History is full of cases where search personel have crashed and been injured or killed while searching for lost aircraft.

 

I think the general sentiment of this thread to now has been spot on. No-one has pointed fingers, but used the situation to highlight some airmanship issues we can all learn from.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Lots of good discussion here, and many interesting points of view. David 10 in post #25 was spot on IMOP, and a lot of what Motz says is valid also.

 

Flying dog also has his way of looking at things, some of which I agree with, and some I don't.

 

Anytime the fan quits, especially unexpectantly on a cross-country flight, yes, it is most definitly an ' emergency situation', until the outcome proves otherwise. Hindsight is always 20/20. Any unexpected or 'forced landing' can instantly turn tragic no matter how things look.

 

An unseen powerline at the last moment, a hidden gully in an otherwise perfect looking field, a hidden log in the grass.

 

This is when you are going to need your prior preparation. A quick radio call to someone, or activation of a PLB.

 

I never go cross country without having my standby freq on a center freq (there's always one avail), and I've always got my PLB close by.

 

Flying dog is correct when he says we can't judge without the full story. Unfortunatly as is the case in many of these incidents, we never get the full story from the horses mouth, so then we have to run with what we have, which is what we have been doing, to all our benifits.... IMOP.......................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Relfy]

I agree with Motz and others, a PLB is an abolute essential bit of safety equipment. I have coordinated search and rescue efforts for lost persons in extremely inhospitable countyr and can tell you that if you activate your beacon in a situation where it may (or may not be necessary ie. prior to forced landing), you will never ever be criticised. On the contrary you will be congratulated by emergency services for showing good judgement and being well equipped. I will only fly in south western QLD remote areas because I have one.

 

Never ever leave your aircraft/vehicle etc unless absolutely necessary or you are confident of reaching assistance nearby.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

2 - I haven't read what EXACTLY happened. Was it an EMERGENCY landing or an un-expected/scheduled landing?

All I have read here is SPECULATION of what happened.

Post 4 claims that it was a "forced landing".

 

3 - Was there a REAL emergency? Sure walking 50 Km is not a good idea, but the question stands.

Well several of us believe that by definition, a "forced landing" is an emergency for good reasons. Whether that ceased to be the case after an apparently safe landing is a matter of opinion.

 

Until we know what happened, I am not going to say they did anything wrong.

Neither has anyone else, although the fact that a Beacon wasn't used has a number of us wondering why not. We may never know the reason.

This forum's purpose is learning and when only partial facts are known, IMHO, it does more good than harm to lay out what should have been done if possible and why in the generic situation. That without implying fault, given a paucity of facts about the specific case. After all, the pilot may never read this, but plenty of forumites will and it could suggest some wise behaviours.

 

It was THEIR choice not to have/use an ELB. Likewise with the phone.....

To be factual, that has not been established in this case.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Regardless of the decisions made by those involved in this, it makes me think of how some people categorize issues about safety. Some take the 'never happen to me approach' and never prepare for any event that may put them in peril. Then those who only put in the minimal effort usually because they are required by some form of law. Then there are those who will carry everything possible to help with their rescue.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Mobile coverage in this area on the ground stinks.

 

But I would still carry a phone as coverage at height (Mildura) is available

 

 

[bones]

Its all dependant on the a/c also i believe, i carry a elt, a sat phone, and i of course still have my mobile(not that its worth a pinch of sh*t), but here is the thing, the elt is behind my head and the sat phone is in bag of gear, neither i can reach from my seat, not that i have time as i only fly at about 150' anyway, and 4 hrs of flying over nothing but sand and trees, no piont going any higher, but you see if the fan stops for me, i can sit it down anywhere with no forward roll. so if im that bad i cant reach either elt/sat phone, not much piont finding whats left huh.

 

I know people as gonna say thats a crappy attitude, but i been doing it for long enough to know my limits

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

With regard to Mobiles and the view that they are marginal...I found that if you have a 3G phone that is quad band, ie covers all the Optus and Telstra 3G frequencies in use especially the lower down ones of 850mhz (telstra) and 900mhz(Optus) , with Telstra as the primary carrier NextG (although that doesnt matter if you dial the mobile emergency number which is 112, it'll use which ever carrier it can lock on to no matter who you are contracted with), that coverage with a handset rated for regional areas is pretty good.

 

I regularly flew Gawler to Narromine via, among others,Pooncaire, and found I had Telstra coverage the whole way no breaks and even when coverage was getting marginal (where Marginal meant that a call might drop out or words had to be repeated), that SMS worked spot on every time....I cant recall for forum purposes, but it may have been that I was above 5000, but below 9500 for operational reasons......like wanting someone to hear me if I yelled for help!!!

 

With respect to the point made about phones rated for regional areas, its my observation that most smartphones, those with full bells and whistles are often very poor as a phone in regional areas and one of the older clamshell or plain mobile will have much better coverage than the smartphones where everything in them is a compromise of some sort or another, usually around space and battery usage... as an example the iphone4 antenna problems/ how you hold it problems. If these were marginal in the city then dont go bush with one and expect good performance.

 

With my experiences I would not be ditching the 3G phone at all. GSM phones....ballast, to be left at home without any consideration at all they truely are useless in this context

 

So, there are phones and there is ballast....make sure you have a phone

 

Bones, Ive pointed out previously that when I picked up my 230 from Tully heads and flew it direct Adelaide, that I had Telstra coverage for about 80% of the way and when you draw that line on a map there really isnt that much out there so 80% is astoundingly good in my opinion. between Aramac and Noccundra Hotel would be a whole lot less populated than around Charters Towers I would have thought.... Mind you, I didnt fly at 150ft and coverage available was merely a function of height. more is good most is better

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Andy;

 

I've found the HTC Desire is very good in regional marginal signal areas, but it is a tri-bander, so for 3G it is tied to one carrier or the other in regional areas (there's two models). The only option for regional connectivity through the "other" carrier is GSM.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

David

 

Most of the Tri bander phones are such because of carrier pressure brought to bear on the OEM's. The lower the frequency in general the better the performance and range(gross over simplification, but bottom line is that 850 and 900 mhz are miles better than the 2 around 2Ghz) As such Telstra doesnt want users who get a phone on the NextG network but who grumble about the expense, to move to Optuses new 900mhz service (900mhz is in process of being rolled out, as 2100 was the older Optus 3G service) which is on par for service rather they want you to experience the subpar 2100 service if you must move, and as such there are 2 models of many phones, being 850 plus the 2 x 2Ghz bands as one (telstra and Optus) and 900 plus the 2 x 2Ghx bands being the other (Optus only).

 

My suggestion to anyone buying a new phone is dont buy a triband phone if you can avoid it and tell them why you wont buy it. Its just Marketing driven to reduce your future options, not any technical reason.

 

The reason I said forget GSM is that the GSM protocol has some specific timing issues which limit operation of a phone and its cell tower to being within about 10km's of each other. further away the radios may well be able to talk and hear each other but the phone service cannot work. So think about phones in overhead luggage racks in planes up at 30'000ft where the plan is humming along at 800km/hr....The phone spends its entire life negotiating the move from one cell to the next. Battery life down the gurgler and annoyed pilots listening to constant dit dit dit dit dit dit in their radios as the negotiation occurs. Wideband CDMA WCDMA or 3G doesnt have the same timing issues and in general if the radio and tower can hear each other then the service will work as advertised (which is a poor analogy with wireless because in reality nothing works as good as adverised but for some strange reason thats Okwith wireless (or never tested with the trade practices act) but dont you car manufacturers try any of that overstating capabilties thing or we'll have you in court in no time flat....another poor analogy because nothing in law ever happens fast... I'll stop now!!)

 

 

[bones]

Bones, Ive pointed out previously that when I picked up my 230 from Tully heads and flew it direct Adelaide, that I had Telstra coverage for about 80% of the way and when you draw that line on a map there really isnt that much out there so 80% is astoundingly good in my opinion. between Aramac and Noccundra Hotel would be a whole lot less populated than around Charters Towers I would have thought.... Mind you, I didnt fly at 150ft and coverage available was merely a function of height. more is good most is better

Andy

That wasnt around here, it is leaving Boula heading basically west, nothing but the odd camel out that way...

 

 

[jcamp]

The reason I said forget GSM is that the GSM protocol has some specific timing issues which limit operation of a phone and its cell tower to being within about 10km's of each other.

Spec is actually 35km. The limit can be reduced by the carrier ( and varied by direction) hence the situation where GSM doesn't work until about 100m before the speed restriction starts.

 

 

[flying dog]

I was talking to someone who said that in the old analogue days, they had full coverage all the way over Bass Straight.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Funny story about coverage...I had been on a station for four days working on a mustering Storch, no coverage on the ground in this remote area (3g mobile). Got the Storch finished and decided to do a test flight, so threw mobile in pocket as is my habit, and switched it on.

 

Flew above the homestead for no longer than 20 minutes, and didn't go any higher than about 400 ft agl. (no need)

 

When I landed I had 17 messages on the phone !!..............Plenty of coverage out there, it just doesn't always touch the ground.........................................Maj........

 

 

[Teckair]

Funny story about coverage...I had been on a station for four days working on a mustering Storch, no coverage on the ground in this remote area (3g mobile). Got the Storch finished and decided to do a test flight, so threw mobile in pocket as is my habit, and switched it on.Flew above the homestead for no longer than 20 minutes, and didn't go any higher than about 400 ft agl. (no need)

 

When I landed I had 17 messages on the phone !!..............Plenty of coverage out there, it just doesn't always touch the ground.........................................Maj........

Yeah no skip, no bounce, just line of sight.

 

 

[Guest Kevin the Penniless]

If they did use a PLB would they be up for thousands of dollars for having somebody come after them? Something I haven't thought about before.

 

 

[sfGnome]

Flew above the homestead for no longer than 20 minutes, and didn't go any higher than about 400 ft agl. (no need). When I landed I had 17 messages on the phone !!..............

I heard a bloke talking about time he spent in Mongolia. He said even out on the steppe, everyone had mobile phones, even though the network was a bit iffy. Apparently the recommended technique for getting an SMS out was to throw the phone as high in the air as possible, and by the time it came down, the message was sent...

 

 

[jcamp]

If they did use a PLB would they be up for thousands of dollars for having somebody come after them? Something I haven't thought about before.

No - the cost of tracking down a PLB is much less than a search. In the case we are discussing, guess few K for a chopper to scene; at least that for a Citation (as previously mentioned) for a radio search usually followed by the cavalry.

 

Long history in aviation,-If you go down we will go after you- make it easy even if the Government pays.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Kevin, Apparantly if you carry a registered PLB and you activate it they will first call your mobile (it's on your registration details) or any other sat phone etc.that you may have. I would imagine they may try to get VHF radio contact also. If neither of those is succesfull, than they would move to possible search activation.

 

The interesting thing about the new generation of PLB which we didn't have on the old ones, is that we can manually switch them off, if things turn out ok..The last I heard the rescue people are more than adequetly funded, so spending a bit now and then even if it's a false alarm is part of their job I suppose................................................................Maj..