New Viking engine

[DonRamsay]

There is a Viking engined aircraft just about ready for its first flight from Cessnock. I'll post more when I hear how that goes.

 

Only comment I'd make at this stage is that the cowling doesn't look to slippery (aerodynamics of a rounded off brick).

 

I don't know if this is because of the shape of the engine or the way it has been installed.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

This would be the Wyex Jan Egg "improved"......

Thanks for the writeup MMO.

 

 

[Jmbb74]

Video - Check it out

 

 

 

[techie49]

I've no axe to grind here, having no connection with the Viking engines. I don't have one or plan to buy one. Don't you think that knowing his history, JE's customers will themselves be wary and intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision on whether to buy his products? Do we really contribute anything by continually criticising his business practices? His product will stand or fall on its performance and the post purchase service he offers. He may well be a 'scammer' as suggested by FT, but he's managed to do quite a reasonable job on the basic engine from what I've read. If you've got a poor product, one buyer will tell others and the product will not sell any more units. It doesn't really matter with the sales pitch. Surely prospective purchasers know they are buying an evolving product, one which is being changed due to their feedback or JE trying to improve his product. This is the nature of experimentation and anyone buying ought really to have their eyes open. There will always be dissatisfied customers who feel they've been conned. They should perhaps think of buying a Rotax instead. Two adages spring to mind, 'If you buy cheap you may buy twice ' (John Ruskin) and definitely 'Caveat Emptor'- (Unknown -to me anyway!)

 

As to weight and balance issues, shouldn't you as the builder know what can go under the cowling?

 

Paul Toone

 

Subaru Experimenter by economic necessity !

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Would have been nice to hear the engine in that video rather than the crap music :-).

 

 

[Jmbb74]

I wouldn't call Queen crap but I had an audio issue with my gopro and radio talking to each other.

 

 

[johnm]

Yes Jmbb74 - would like to hear that motor on the ground running and a run up - if you can - thanks

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Don't you think that knowing his history, JE's customers will themselves be wary and intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision on whether to buy his products? Do we really contribute anything by continually criticising his business practices?

Here's a radical concept: People actually need information before they can make "reasoned decisions".

 

They should perhaps think of buying a Rotax instead.

What a nonsensical statement, if everybody had $20,000 burning in their pocket the Viking wouldn't even exist.

 

 

[magishme]

Music is great - Iron Eagle!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I wouldn't call Queen crap but I had an audio issue with my gopro and radio talking to each other.

Wash my mouth out! I was listening so hard for the engine I didn't hear Queen just interference.

 

 

[techie49]

Sorry but what's nonsensical about suggesting that someone who expects immediate performance and a proven product goes and buys a Rotax?

 

I'm trying to suggest if you don't want problems, changes or any mods to an engine, then go and buy something that is fully established. I certainly would if I could afford their prices.

 

The sarcastic comment about 'reasoned decisions' is a little strange also. People generally do read available information and there's plenty to be had on the Viking engines.

 

Paul Toone

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm trying to suggest if you don't want problems, changes or any mods to an engine, then go and buy something that is fully established. I certainly would if I could afford their prices.

Telling people who can't afford a Rotax to go buy a Rotax is nonsensical.

 

Do we really contribute anything by continually criticising his business practices? People generally do read available information and there's plenty to be had on the Viking engines.

If no one offers information then there is no information available.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

so, where's your engine then? When that's ready JE wont get a look in

 

 

[techie49]

I didn't want to suggest perhaps a hint of vested interest in the criticism of my suggestion to buy a Rotax if you want a tried and tested product, but since you mention it ...............!

 

Paul Toone

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Can't afford a new 912S? Buy a used one

 

 

[rankamateur]

I didn't want to suggest perhaps a hint of vested interest in the criticism of my suggestion to buy a Rotax if you want a tried and tested product, but since you mention it ...............!Paul Toone

No more than we have come to expect, but until he has an engine, does it really matter?

 

 

[eightyknots]

No more than we have come to expect, but until he has an engine, does it really matter?

It's a big task developing a new lightweight, reliable, powerful aircraft engine. I am sure Bex is working flat out on this. We'll just have to be patient.

 

 

[saccani]

Telling people who can't afford a Rotax to go buy a Rotax is nonsensical.

The reality is, if you can't afford a used Rotax 912, you definitely can't afford a "new" Viking. You can get a 912ULS3 with 500 HTR for $6,500 in Australia.

 

With the propeller and spinner thrown in. You would have a much greater chance of running that on condition for 2,000 hours safely without overhaul than you would from the Viking. Sure, the cost of overhaul is greater when it comes - but even if you did that after only 500 hours, it wouldn't be that much greater than a Viking. The idea of having a cheap replacement engine after 2,000 hours is flawed, in that private operations take a long time to chew up 2,000 hours, and the engine is already superceded in production. You can't reasonably expect to get a cheap, low time engine in good condition in ten years time. And you have to remember, you are comparing a used automotive engine conversion with a *new* Rotax 912ULS. The correct comparison is with a used Rotax 912ULS.

 

The claimed 117 HP output of the Viking is an exact match to the published flywheel power of the Honda engine, the 100 HP rating of the Rotax is for the propeller flange *at the end of TBO*, so this may not be as big a factor as some think. And if you have need of any of the reduction drive components in ten years time, the non-availability of spares for Eggenfellner Aircraft reduction drives should factor into your assessment.

 

The Viking isn't that cheap, if you ask me. And it is heavier, particularly when its installation requirements are looked at.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The reality is, if you can't afford a used Rotax 912, you definitely can't afford a "new" Viking. You can get a 912ULS3 with 500 HTR for $6,500 in Australia.

The Viking isn't that cheap, if you ask me. And it is heavier, particularly when its installation requirements are looked at.

Everybody should in reality buy a 40,000km car as well based on price and expected life but most still buy a new car with all the ridiculousness that comes with it including the immediate devaluation the moment you drive it off the showroom floor. People don't do logical things.

 

Yuh, I agree, when I realised the Viking was using sub-$1000 used engine cores, I was surprised at the price too, up until then I thought they were new.

 

 

[Downunder]

Maybe if the Viking was priced lower, people would think of it as "cheap".

 

A friends father had a shop (before the internet). He imported a pile of watches cheap and put them up for sale at $20 each. They didn't sell as they were considered "cheap". Bumped the price to $90 and they sold!!

 

 

[saccani]

Jan's issues were mostly from the Subaru conversions and PSRU, he left a lot of people hanging dry and still a lot of bitterness over it - but it's all out there on the net including dedicated hate sites.One reason for the Honda choice is it has dual plugs standard.

I know this is an old post, but just to clarify; The Viking uses the Honda L15A7 engine. That is not dual plug version, the L15A2, A4 and the (rare) A5 engines are dual plug. That's I-DSI in Honda's parlance, for "Intelligent Dual and Sequential Ignition". This isn't used on the VTEC engines, like the one in the Viking. Though the VTEC is disabled in the Viking conversion.

 

I did bring this up with Jan, that it would be better to go with the dual ignition version, even at a small cost in power, but he pooh poohed the idea and he may have been right to do so. I also discussed this with Jeron Smith, of Raven Redrives, during the development of his L15 based engine. He gave a reasonable explanation, that he was excited when I-DSI came out, but that I-DSI swapped two valves for a spark plug, and that though this improved economy and potential reliability was increased, the power to weight trade off wasn't worth it. I can agree, in that an unmodified I-DSI puts out about 86 HP, versus 117 HP for an A7 with VTEC (and consequently, a four valve head).

 

If one was prepared to cut up a few heads to find out where to put it, I think a second plug could be put into the VTEC head, but it would have to be a small plug, like the second one used in 4 valve Alfa Romeo Twin Spark engines. I'd certainly be more content with an independent 2nd ignition available.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I know this is an old post, but just to clarify; The Viking uses the Honda L15A7 engine. like the second one used in 4 valve Alfa Romeo Twin Spark engines.

Thanks for the further info Paul.

 

Ironically I only found out yesterday that the Alfa Twing Spark 2.0 is actually used in the GAC Trumpchi/GA5 SUV, a better class Chinese medium sedan and SUV here based on the Alfa 166 platform. I want to know if they are making the engine here in China, eg. cheap, or imported from Italy.

 

http://oversea.gacmotor.com/

 

 

[saccani]

Thanks for the further info Paul.Ironically I only found out yesterday that the Alfa Twing Spark 2.0 is actually used in the GAC Trumpchi/GA5 SUV, a better class Chinese medium sedan and SUV here based on the Alfa 166 platform. I want to know if they are making the engine here in China, eg. cheap, or imported from Italy.

 

http://oversea.gacmotor.com/

Hmmm... well they aren't that flash when made by Italians. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese made ones were *better*!

 

Cheers,

 

Paul.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hmmm... well they aren't that flash when made by Italians. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese made ones were *better*!

I disagree, Italians do make good core engines (the physical mechanicals) - you need to excuse the electrics and the rest of the car (or bike) though! I had an Alfetta for 7 years.

 

 

[saccani]

I disagree, Italians do make good core engines (the physical mechanicals) - you need to excuse the electrics and the rest of the car (or bike) though! I had an Alfetta for 7 years.

I just work on them. They don't have long lives. I sure wouldn't contemplate a TS for an Aero conversion. ;)

Cheers,

 

Paul