Stol

[Yenn]

I don't fly a STOL plane, but have some idea of what is required to fly one safely. There have been a few accidents of supposedly STOL aircraft and while I have my own ideas of what should be done, is there anyone who has expertise in this field, or even anecdotal information on how to do it and also not do it?

 

 

[Spin]

Not something I know much about but will be interested to see what comes out of the discussion. I have watched a bloke who does bush pilot training courses do some really hair raising things with a Cessna, hair raising to me at least but it was very interesting to hear him explain what was involved. The lesson was that if you know your aircraft well and are current, there is a lot of capability unused in normal operations. Some of the old PNG hands have some interesting tales to tell in this regard too.

 

 

[poteroo]

The term STOL, (short takeoff & landing), is taken to apply to an aircraft capable of taking off and landing in 450m over a 15m obstacle, at gross weight and in nil wind. It's often taken to mean using a much lower approach and initial climb speed, eg, 1.1 Vs rather than 1.3 Vs.

 

I've always assumed that flying any aircraft to its' full envelope of capability is something that you can learn as a pilot, but it doesn't imply that the aircraft itself is STOL capable.

 

There are quite a few tricks-of-the-trade that cagey old instructors use, that make the flying very impressive, without it being unsafe. The aircraft needn't be STOL capable to do this - but it helps.

 

Getting a 'standard' aircraft into and out of, tight strips is very much dependant on sound technique and plenty of currency. It could be that some of the accidents involving 'STOL' aircraft are just due to mishandling and don't represent any inherent deficiency in the aircraft.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Good topic, Yenn. I'm definitely in the market for better STOL techniques.

 

The Corby is a fast little beast; what's it's stall and landing run like?

 

 

[facthunter]

rising out of Scotty's comment. One of your main difficulties is keeping the aircraft from getting airborne again if a gust hits you. These aircraft are not easy to handle in gusty or high wind conditions. You also have the difficulty of getting the weight of the plane on the maingear to get adhesion for braking. Nev

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Maybe some of the below may stimulate some discussion,

 

Just a few points to consider in STOL type operations:

 

AIRCRAFT:

 

Familiarity with aircraft, particularly across lower end of envelope, use of rudder, particularly good secondary control.Mastering power and attitude balance. Operating at the back of the drag curve, ground clearance.

 

ENVIRONMENT:

 

Legality ALA's vs 500" min, micrometeorology(big subject!), familiarity,walk or drag the location, time of day operations, density altitude, reading terrain, recognising obstacles, One way operations.

 

SKILLS:

 

Flap application, sideslipping, soft field short field techniques,taxiing obstacle avoidance, upslope landing.

 

Getting in and getting out present different dangers and challenges. No matter who you talk to most will tell you that it's practice, practice. Start in familiar environments and narrow down your parameters there first. SAFETY is No1- if in doubt don't do it. We often do PFL refreshers and BFR's and pilot's soon realise how rusty they get in these areas. Done right it opens up many opportunities and rewards. I'll watch with interest further replies to this thread also.

 

 

[Powerin]

From observing STOL aircraft and playing around with them on a Flight Sim (Cub, Storch, PC6) it seems one of the "tricks" for a really short landing is to get behind the drag curve. You can use pretty high angles of attack (achieved by thick wings and slats or VGs) and you get to a point where you gradually raise the nose higher, increase power, go slower, but maintain your approach angle. I would assume however that this is a fairly risky mode of flight. A bit of wind shear or sink would be hard to recover from (think brick) as you don't have as much reserve of power or lift. As I said, the above is purely from observation not experience!

 

Edit: ahh....Ballpoint beat me posting. Read his post...ignore mine

 

 

[Yenn]

You are right, the Corby is fast, but it supposedly stalls a a suitable speed for RAAus rego. I get high sink rates at an indicated speed of less than 60kts. It does tend to roll on a long way if the brakes are not used. I can get in fairly short by coming in on the back of the power curve, that gives me a high sink rate and I have to drop the nose to ensure i have enough energy to flare. Slipping is a good way of steepening the approach and in my opiion better than flaps, because you can straighten up from a slip and don't have the problem of losing lift, which happens with flap retraction.

 

One of the main things which apply to STOL operation is very strict control of speed I think.

 

 

[Guest kiwilad]

I fly an extreme STOL Zenair 701. As several have said ,being very current in your machine.Each type of plane is very different.I can land mine in less than 40 mtrs,but have to come in very nose high,full flaps,heaps of power (almost prop hanging ) and things can change very quickly not far from the ground.Having said that its very satisfying being able to land on short beaches,or river beds

 

 

[bones]

The best STOL machine i ever flew is a gyro, but then you expected that huh, t/o 150mts landing 10mts if i balls it up, shorter if its done right, cruise at 70kts.

 

Everytime i think of going fw i just keep coming back to the gyros again.

 

 

[Yenn]

There is more to STOL than the landing. It seems to me that a lot of pilots with STOL capable planes are stuffing up the take off. In the latest RAAus mag there is a report of a Savannah coming to grief, while practicing a short field take off.

 

It is not uncommon to see that sort of plane with an extreme nose high attitude at the start of the climb, in fact it also applies to a lot of other than STOL planes, rather like accidents waiting to happen. Whatever happened to the idea af putting down the nose, while in ground effect and increasing speed. That of course doesn't apply to STOL.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Poterroo in his post #3 is pretty spot on.

 

There are basically true STOL aircraft designed for that purpose, and other aircraft well capable of performing a short landing and takeoff with the right pilot skills, and the right handling of the aircraft.

 

Even the cessna 152, 172 and 182 are quite capable of performing pretty good in those areas, if the correct techniques are used, and the figures quoted in the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) are followed.

 

Most of my recent STOL experience is in either a Slepcev SS4 Storch, or Savannah VG. the Storch is extremly STOL of course as designed, and the Savvy not too far behind.

 

If you really intend to conduct serious STOL ops, you really need to be in either of the above aircraft, or any other specifically designed such as the Hornet etc.

 

In any other aircraft not designed as a STOL aircraft, you are really conducting a short-field take off or landing, not true STOL ops.

 

If you are in a STOL aircraft, it is just a matter of getting sufficent time in that aircraft to fully explore it's unique capabilities, and become comfortable enough to use them to best advantage.

 

In the Storch for instance you really just need to have the kahoolies to trust the design totally, and slow it down on final, way below the speed that most aircraft would fall out of the sky at !!....

 

Having achieved this, you will be pleasantly pleased to find that most (and storch particulary) are quite happy at this super slow speed, very stable, and still with full control authority in all axises.

 

The Storch wing by the way is far from black magic. It is simply a Clarke Y airfoil the same as the standard Lightwing, with a full-length leading-edge slat, and a very large flap hanging off the back of it. Of course it is also fitted with a specialized long-travel landing gear that allows you to 'drop it on' in a fashion, that would probabily cause damage to a normal standard landing gear.

 

The Savvy VG wing also allows for very low-speed stable approaches with full control, and when fitted with 'tundra' tires all round, can also handle a lot of arrival 'abuse' if necessary.

 

Any STOL aircraft capable of conducting a 'low and slow' approach, should also have sufficient excess power to instantly initiate a go-around, and safe climb out, if excessive sink or turbulance is encountered. The 100hp 912 is well suited to this with it's instant reponse to throttle, and quick available power......................................................Maj...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spin]

 

Seems this may sum it up instead of getting caught up in semantics, some of our members may even know a little more about this video:oh yeah:

 

 

[farri]

Whatever happened to the idea af putting down the nose, while in ground effect and increasing speed. That of course doesn't apply to STOL.

I`ve got quite a few hrs in a Zenith 701 and in my opinion if the maximum angle of climb is going to be used on take-off,keep praying that the engine doesn`t quit!

 

I`m not saying that it can`t or shouldn`t be done! I`m saying that there`s a lot less room for error,closer to none at all,in fact!!!

 

For maximum safety at low altitude,the nose attitude ( IAS ) should be such that if the engine does stops the aircraft won`t stall before the nose can be lowered.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

To retain control of the aircraft has to be a priority, most times. Stalling it into tree tops might be an exception. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

 

Very impressive. That's exactly what I'd like to be able (and game) to do... It looks like Dairy Flat, NW of Kyogle- not far from my homeland. Can anyone tell us more?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I am pretty sure the blue and yellow sav belongs to a guy who is a jetstar captain and I know he flys out of his home at Petrie from a 5 or 10 acre block the other savannah is Bill grieves old one which Ultralights now owns. I heard the jetstar guys strip was for very very experienced pilots only and by the look of it certainly is. But what a great way to show off how good the savannahs are at Stol performance in the right hands. I am saving that Youtube link

 

Mark

 

 

[eightyknots]

This looks like a pretty impressive take-off and landing of a STOL Zenith CH-701:

 

 

 

[eightyknots]

This is an even more impressive STOL plane landing. In fact, it is not a lot different from a helicopter. Check it out:

 

 

 

[Spin]

Dunno, I found no. 1 the more impressive of the two, no. 2 was real ugly, flared way too late and just drove it into the ground - quite a testament to the toughness of the aircraft.

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Interesting topic - I fly a BIG modified Clark Y wing without flaps on a tailwheeler. How short it will land is really just a matter of judgement as to how close to stall speed, allowing for conditions on the day, you make your approach. And a 3-point landing ensures that it is stalled on touchdown with plenty of up elevator. Then you can progressively brake to whoa up quickly. Worst condition for short-field ops is nil wind, as ground effect prolongs lift. I have at times killed the engine shortly after touchdown to shorten the roll under these conditions.

 

STOL is good!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I don't have any real good Storch STOL footage, but there must be some around somewhere. I'm usually the one in the plane !. I will be going bush in a month or so, and will be on two stations with Storches so I will try to get some fresh footage.

 

One station has his strip right in front of the house, and is definitly a Storch strip with only about 300 mts available. The approach and departure are clear however, and there's usually a good wind blowing in those parts.

 

I have landed his Storch on it with no dramas, and also landed the Lightwing on it last time I was there. With light fuel I did a takeoff also with him on board in the Lightwing, and used every inch, but got off ok.Landing back on was also fine, but with not much strip left.

 

Key to this strip is what shape you'r in over the fence. You must be just about out of everything and ready to pull power, and drop it on. If not 'in the groove', it's pedal to the metal, and around for another go. The strip is probabily twice as long as the Storch needs, even fully loaded.

 

This particular Storch is fitted with an in-flight adjustable 3-blade prop, and the owner would be the highest time Storch pilot in the country today. He was taught to fly by Nestor Slepcev, and has in addition at least 6000+ Robinson helicopter hours.

 

I have put the Lightwing into a cane-siding by my house on a couple of occasions with about 400mts usable. (gravel, photo below) Point of touchdown on the cane siding strip is just beyond the rail lines in the foreground. You can see the power pole at the other end by the shed.

 

It's the same story, get low and slow with flap and drop it in over the edge of the suger cane, and then get on the brakes. I generally only do this one solo as there is a power line close to the strip on the way out. STOL flying is great fun and really gets you in touch with your aircraft, and it's real capabilities.........................................................Maj...

 

 

 

 

 

[farri]

STOL aircraft ,what is required to fly one safely. is there anyone who has expertise in this field, or even anecdotal information on how to do it and also not do it?

Yen has asked a question, which, to my mind, is both complex and difficult to answer correctly!

 

Is there a * one fits all * method?

 

In my opinion! No there isn`t!

 

Each type of AC and the particular situation and conditions it`s being flown in needs to be considered.

 

Generalising ( A one fits all method ) could be adding to the cause of the accidents!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Tsemler]

The best STOL machine i ever flew is a gyro, but then you expected that huh, t/o 150mts landing 10mts if i balls it up, shorter if its done right, cruise at 70kts.Everytime i think of going fw i just keep coming back to the gyros again.

I hear ya Mark,

 

 

 

[Yenn]

I am just wondering if the main requirement of STOL flying is careful speed control.