Triker going over to the (3-axis) dark side

[cscotthendry]

At the risk of having projectiles aimed at my head, I'd like to know what's involved in converting from a WSM license (HGFA) to a 3-axis license.

 

A bit of history:About 15 years ago, I did about 15 hours in a Lightwing taildragger. I never finished the license, but still have my logbook. I now have a WSM license with endorsements for radio, pax, and cross country. I also have a 3-axis flight simulator at home which I regularly fly so that I don't become too mono-focussed with the trike. Yes, the sim IS based on MS Flightsim, but it is a full cockpit with working instruments and radios.

 

Any advice here, especially from any instructors reading this would be most welcome.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

we recently had a another journey to the 'dark side'...we don't need to go there again!

??????

 

 

[David F]

Hi Scott

 

I started out weightshift (hang gliders) and did a small amount on trikes before I went three axis found the enclosed cockpit far more civilised and the aircraft more affordable and capable. Never had an issue with so called control reversal ( just think the joystick is your body ie move your body forward to decrease the angle of attack ) Nail the basics and you are there.

 

Dave

 

 

[turboplanner]

??????

I think he's referring to Tasmania

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Hi Scott

 

Not sure if you are asking about the process as well as the actual training? If so, the easiest way is to first get an RAAus Pilot Certificate for Group B (weightshift) on the basis of your HGFA qualifications. RAAus have a form for this - http://www.raa.asn.au/docs/ops/pilot_certificate_converting_pilot.pdf. Your conversion to fixed wing is then simply adding a different aircraft group to your certificate.

 

If you are planning to have the best of both worlds by continuing to fly your trike as well, you will need to either -

 

reregister your trike with RAAus (http://www.raa.asn.au/docs/tech/Registration%20for%20a%20Transfer%20from%20VH,%20HGFA.pdf) or maintain membership of both organisations.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[cscotthendry]

John:

 

Thanks heaps for that. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

 

 

[alf jessup]

At the risk of having projectiles aimed at my head, I'd like to know what's involved in converting from a WSM license (HGFA) to a 3-axis license.A bit of history:About 15 years ago, I did about 15 hours in a Lightwing taildragger. I never finished the license, but still have my logbook. I now have a WSM license with endorsements for radio, pax, and cross country. I also have a 3-axis flight simulator at home which I regularly fly so that I don't become too mono-focussed with the trike. Yes, the sim IS based on MS Flightsim, but it is a full cockpit with working instruments and radios.

 

Any advice here, especially from any instructors reading this would be most welcome.

Hi Scott,

 

I had 22 hrs in GA training with 8 of that solo 25 years ago plus nearly 700 in the trike, as your well aware i just done the conversion to 3 axis (Jabiru 160) in December.

 

It did not take me long at all to get my certificate in RAA 3 axis.

 

Think it was around 7 hrs for me to be signed off in the Jab.

 

I was HGFA also and now i have RAA 3 axis and Trike while still having my HGFA trike also.

 

As I had pax, X/country, radio ect it all carried over to the 3 axis licence.

 

Rest assured it is a nice ticket to have in the 3 axis as it opens up far more options to go flying and those thermals we wrestle in the trike are now just a flick of the wrist and far more comfortable.

 

Good luck with your training my soon to be dark side accomplace.

 

Alf

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Alf:

 

Thanks heaps for the encouragement, especially with the comment about the turbulence. My memory of flying the Lightwing was just like that. Turbulence wasn't a problem, but in the trike, I'm always apprehensive that I may lose control of it.

 

A little story: During my training I got quite a wild ride into an airfield with trees very close to the sides of the runway with a moderate crosswind over the trees. This happened when I was solo +0.5. When I got the trike on the ground (after a go-around), I was pretty shaken. Some time later, I copped a moderate rotor off the tops of some trees while flying low over the Noosa river, fright #2. Then sometime later, at the behest of my instructor (in the rear seat) I flew up under a small cloud. Unfortunately, he didn't mention what was about to happen and wham, fright #3. Since then I seem to go one step forward with my confidence, get a hit and go one step back. Finally, I've got a friend who was training when I was, and he related a story of a hit so violent that the training bar hit him in the shoulder so hard he thought it nearly dislocated it. Now he's a big burly bloke and I'm just a weedy guy and ever since, I've had two things in the back of my mind when the turbulence starts up; How bad is this going to get? and Will I be able to keep control of the trike? I know my fear is probably irrational (bordering on phobia) but there it is.

 

So Darkside, here I come.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

This is exactly what i'm trying to find out, are trikes a viable thing or not?

 

I did about 8hrs dual in a 912 and on my last lesson a few clouds started appearing, a little wind and next thing I know I couldn't keep it straight and level, it felt like it was trying to turn all the time and it was a phisical struggle to fly the thing.

 

I decided they weren't a real proposition unless the conditions were perfect and so i never went back.

 

A few years later a 3-axis training school opened up near me so i have been training there ever since. The first thing i noticed was how easy it is to fly them through the bumps. You just stir the stick as required an off you go no dramas.

 

I am well aware that the problem was my inexperience and not that trikes just plain suck and now i'm considering going back to trike training and getting one when i'm licenced. The big draw for me is the view and the buzz you get from an open cabin unlike the isolation you feel when flying in a fibreglass box

 

so i'm in two minds really and not sure which way i should go

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

nunans;

 

Any aircraft is more affected by turbulence the lighter it is, however I suspect there are a bunch of suspicions and fallacies that surround the ability of trikes to handle turbulence vs 3-axis aircraft.

 

Bottom line.. Trikes are viable and can be flown in a wide range of conditions. The following points affect the ability to handle turbulence well:-

 

• Two strokes handle turbulence worse than four strokes, due to the lower weight.
   
   
  
• Slower wings get affected more.
   
   
  
• Of the Airborne trikes, the SST wing is affected least, followed by the Streak-3.
   
   
  
• The experience of the pilot. Some of the "turbulence" can be pilot induced.
   
   
  

 

 

I believe there are training schools that only fly in ideal conditions. I don't think that does the learning pilot any favours, as when they encounter poor conditions, they would be out of their depth. I was taught in a wide range of conditions although the early flights were kept in good conditions until I learned to fly the aircraft. You do need to learn initially in good conditions.

 

In my early hours, I found turbulence concerning but now approaching 200 hours it does not phase me anymore. As always it is important to fly in conditions you are capable of handling.

 

Occasionally you do need to put some force into counteracting an uncommanded turn, such as when a dust devil went past me during takeoff the other day, but it only lasts a few seconds and then you are back to just gentle inputs again. One mistake made by low hours trike pilots is to try and brace the bar so it does not move. It will jump around a bit in turbulence, but you would be surprised at just how little input is needed to correct slight changes in course.

 

I'm not sure what you call ideal conditions, but I fly in winds up to 20kn on the ground, cross wind or not, in the middle of the day in summer when thermals are pushing the trike up and down at up to 1,100'/min, winds aloft gusting to 60kn in an SST and over 45kn in Streak-3. I landed in rain a few weeks ago that was approaching VFR minima. I do not believe I'm pushing the boundaries.

 

If you would like a recommendation for a school that flies in all safe weather, PM me.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

My experience is similar to Davids.

 

Low hour pilots will see turbulence as a problem and scary. Resulting approach is to fight every movement and try and put it back to where it was. Of course in reality the pilot induced movements result in aircraft behaviour that is probably much worse than the turbulence to start with. The other thing is that Trikes may be light, but the control effort required is disproportional to their size (when compared to 3axis)of effort involved in manhandling a trike in turbulence. The result is that after a relatively short time you feel exhausted.

 

Long time pilots just think of their craft as a foam lump in the sea, it gets tossed around but only needs handiling when the longer term trend is away from where you want to go. Its not unusual in rough turbulence to have the trike plus or minus 20 dgeress of intended course and not do anything to correct it unless it gets too far away. teh amount of effort involved in control is then significantly less because the movements arent as significant (fine ajustment) and about approx 1/10th as many.

 

I absolutely agree that training only in fair weather is wrong, although, as you have already seen, taking people into clothes dryer conditions too early is also wrong. If you were to stick with it, I'll bet that in a relatively short time you would become much more comfortable with it. For me, it always (mostly always) seemed that when landing the turbulence dissapeared in the last 20ft and landing was mostly no more difficult than when the weather was absolutely perfect.

 

The trouble with only flying in hollywood weather (perfect) is that you can spend an awful lot of time sitting around waiting for that to occur and then only flying for a short time and not far from the airport because its rare in a trike to not encounter some turb most flights.

 

Theres one thing for sure if you stick with it......fly commercially and watch the rest of the passengers go grey in the face and sweat when "turbulence is encountered" at that same time you'll chuckle and think "turbulence...that aint no turbulence!"

 

From all that you might take away that high hour trikers fly in anything....which is absolutely not the case. Lunchtime on a summer gusty day with lots of thermal activity can be damned uncomfortable, and stresses the aircraft more than it needs to be stressed, but those who train and fly only in perfect weather wont fly at all that day where as those who keep turbelence in the "respect it" box but not the "avoid at all cost" box could easily fly for a fair chunky of the day just giving the 3-4hours around midday a miss, where they can.

 

Nothing beats a trike for just tooling around the sky having fun in my opinion, just as nothing beats a good 3axis machine if your need is to cover a fair chunk of Australia in a limited timeframe. Temorra for example from where I live, is likely 3-4hrs in my J230 and a full day or more, in a trike. a 10kt headwind at 120kts represents an 8.3% degredation head on, yet at 55kts represents 18% degredation. in the jabiru that is a pain, but no change in plans for the day, in the trike that can be game changing. Winds of 10kts aloft are more the rule than the exception...

 

Andy

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Yep . . . what David and Andy said.

 

Another thing to think about in strong conditions is taxiing.

 

Last Sept I flew in company with 2 other trikes (all XT-912 Streak-3's) from Murrayville SA, planning to stop for a break and map change at Kerang and continue to Yarrawonga.

 

Started with a nice 20 kt tail wind at 4,000ft above inversion layer in clear skies. As we approached Kerang the clouds appeared and thickened up to complete overcast looking angry so 10 miles before Kerang we had to descend into the washing machine.

 

I still remember that glance at my GPS at 100ft on final at Kerang. 17kts ground speed for 60kts airspeed . . . this could be interesting . . . Tighten belt, Increase throttle, pull bar in -> 75kts airspeed, cut through windsheer, stop base from swinging by letting the rear wheels alternately touch down repeatedly until theyre both touching. Hmm that was interesting.

 

My belief about cutting through turbulence at speed is that speed at altitude should be limited to maneouvering speed as there can be large vertical gust components which could stress/overload the airframe. Close to the ground when landing large vertical components are unlikely since flat ground provides a boundary condition, though dust devils can provide the exception.

 

Getting back to the taxiing. I landed on the dirt cross-strip as that was into the wind and had to taxi more than 500m along the main tarmac strip with the cross-wind gusting 30kts+. In a trike that is very physically demanding but you do have more control over your wing angle than in a 3-axis machine. There have been instances of trikes being blown over while taxiing in such conditions. Thankfully all 3 trikes made it to the lee side of the club house where we tied down. We ended up staying in Kerang that night as Yarrawonga was reporting thunderstorms, 40kts wind across the main sealed strip and the grass x-strip was closed for being too wet.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[skeptic36]

I believe there are training schools that only fly in ideal conditions. I don't think that does the learning pilot any favours, as when they encounter poor conditions, they would be out of their depth.

The conflict between what is good for business and what is good for the student is something I have been concerned about for a long time.

 

It you are under financial pressure then you don't want to be losing a student due to the fear of what happens when you strike thermal activity. How you separate the two I am not sure.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

The conflict between what is good for business and what is good for the student is something I have been concerned about for a long time.It you are under financial pressure then you don't want to be losing a student due to the fear of what happens when you strike thermal activity. How you separate the two I am not sure.

Regards Bill

I agree that could potentially be a factor in some cases, and it is impossible for a new student who has no flying experience to evaluate whether it is applicable to a specific school. Neither extreme is a good school. ie. one that only flys in ideal conditions nor one that plays fast and loose with safety to fly in dangerous conditions.

Obtaining opinions through these forums from pilots who have flying experience is one avenue for finding good schools, but at the end of the day, each potential student must make their own decision and then re-evaluate in the light of experience and talking with others. Once you get into flying, it is easy to become a bit of a hangar rat and listen to the other students and visiting pilots. Observe the instruction given to other students. Observe the care and maintenance afforded the school aircraft. Listen to the comments made by the CFI and conversations with other pilots (non students). All these can give indications that are deeper than marketing.

 

Of course this scenario in general is not limited to flying, but is one that needs to be examined in every new business relationship or purchase of services.

 

In hindsight, I believe I chose the right school that continues to help me be a better safer pilot than some I hear about. I believe I have received value far exceeding the lessons alone.

 

 

[alf jessup]

One thing with a trike is that it seems more turbulent than it really is.

 

When on the ground viewing trikes take off at times you hardly notice the moving around of the wing and when it does it would be not much more that 5 to 15 deg wing down, but when you speak to some of the pilots who took off they say " geez that was really rough" but in hind site the pod is the thing that does the dance as it pivots around the keel hang point.

 

Yes sitting in the trike at times it feels uncomfortable in turbulence or thermatic conditions but that is only your comfort zone playing with you.

 

So many trike pilots i know of when landing try to fly the pod, the thing with the trike is fly the wing all the time as the pod will follow it everytime.

 

Turbulence is only a comfort factor thing, everyone has different levels, sometimes i dont like it but i deal with it as no one else is going to help you up there.

 

I'm like most, the only time i get a tad concerned at is taxiing the thing on the ground when the winds up and leaving it sit there while i open the hanger doors, flying in it is what it was built for.

 

Alf

 

 

[Tracktop]

One thing with a trike is that it seems more turbulent than it really is.When on the ground viewing trikes take off at times you hardly notice the moving around of the wing and when it does it would be not much more that 5 to 15 deg wing down, but when you speak to some of the pilots who took off they say " geez that was really rough" but in hind site the pod is the thing that does the dance as it pivots around the keel hang point.

Yes sitting in the trike at times it feels uncomfortable in turbulence or thermatic conditions but that is only your comfort zone playing with you.

 

So many trike pilots i know of when landing try to fly the pod, the thing with the trike is fly the wing all the time as the pod will follow it everytime.

 

Turbulence is only a comfort factor thing, everyone has different levels, sometimes i dont like it but i deal with it as no one else is going to help you up there.

 

I'm like most, the only time i get a tad concerned at is taxiing the thing on the ground when the winds up and leaving it sit there while i open the hanger doors, flying in it is what it was built for.

 

Alf

Yep agree

 

If you get a chance to watch a video of trike in turbulence where the camera is mounted on the wing etc and not the pod or pilot, watch the horizon

 

and it will be fairly static verses the pod which may be moving around a hell of a lot. A camera shot with camera mounted on the control bar that includes showing the pod front illustrates this very well.

 

Ray

 

 

[XC-Buzzard]

At the risk of having projectiles aimed at my head, I'd like to know what's involved in converting from a WSM license (HGFA) to a 3-axis license.A bit of history:About 15 years ago, I did about 15 hours in a Lightwing taildragger. I never finished the license, but still have my logbook. I now have a WSM license with endorsements for radio, pax, and cross country. I also have a 3-axis flight simulator at home which I regularly fly so that I don't become too mono-focussed with the trike. Yes, the sim IS based on MS Flightsim, but it is a full cockpit with working instruments and radios.

 

Any advice here, especially from any instructors reading this would be most welcome.

Thats Funny Scott I crossed over from the Dark side, Gliding and Ga many years ago into the Light of Triking and Ultralights..... And have been able to afford More flying hours and ownership of my own Birds,, Dont stray to far to long ! Regards Lance...

 

 

[Jiefuster]

Hi, I agree with much of what has been said. My first instructor in a 912 took me up in bumpy air near the coast, scared the crap out of me and said 'you'll need to get used to it if you are going to x country". X country!!! Man, I'd be pleased to get around a circuit and get down again! Alive. Meanwhile it's Sat morning and what seemed like every plane in the world wanted to land to take off, but I was expected to cope with that. Instructor 2, in a quiet rural strip taught me to fly low, but instruction was accompanied every time by a good dollop of criticism, despite my absolute best efforts. Could do no right. Bumps were expected to be dealt with and I was a sissy to worry about them. Talk about feeling like failure. They still scared the crap out of me after 20 hrs..... Finally I sought recommendations and went to a real professional trike instructor in Victoria. Gave me time to adjust, to understand what was happening, taught me gently that the wing would indeed 'fly itself'. Taught me stabilised approaches and how to deal with in flight emergencies. And flights on a late December arvo as the sun was setting over the Murray. So now, after 60+hours, a fortnight ago I finally 'let go' - not literally but with my whole body. I relaxed, really just let my hands damp the movement. And yes the trike moves much more but no longer can I feel the massive pucker factor when it starts getting a little lumpy. Still sometimes mildly apprehensive, but getting there - and it's just magic when it comes together!! I can feel the wind under my hands, not on a leveraged stick behind fibreglass or tin, and know the layers by the change in temperature, and sometimes the smell. Worth the journey - you bet!!!

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hi, I agree with much of what has been said. My first instructor in a 912 took me up in bumpy air near the coast, scared the crap out of me and said 'you'll need to get used to it if you are going to x country". X country!!! Man, I'd be pleased to get around a circuit and get down again! Alive. Meanwhile it's Sat morning and what seemed like every plane in the world wanted to land to take off, but I was expected to cope with that. Instructor 2, in a quiet rural strip taught me to fly low, but instruction was accompanied every time by a good dollop of criticism, despite my absolute best efforts. Could do no right. Bumps were expected to be dealt with and I was a sissy to worry about them. Talk about feeling like failure. They still scared the crap out of me after 20 hrs..... Finally I sought recommendations and went to a real professional trike instructor in Victoria. Gave me time to adjust, to understand what was happening, taught me gently that the wing would indeed 'fly itself'. Taught me stabilised approaches and how to deal with in flight emergencies. And flights on a late December arvo as the sun was setting over the Murray. So now, after 60+hours, a fortnight ago I finally 'let go' - not literally but with my whole body. I relaxed, really just let my hands damp the movement. And yes the trike moves much more but no longer can I feel the massive pucker factor when it starts getting a little lumpy. Still sometimes mildly apprehensive, but getting there - and it's just magic when it comes together!! I can feel the wind under my hands, not on a leveraged stick behind fibreglass or tin, and know the layers by the change in temperature, and sometimes the smell. Worth the journey - you bet!!!

Jiefuster,

 

Another 50 - 100hrs you will fell a tad bit more comfortable, I ended up with about 760hrs in trikes and enjoyed it immensely, in the end as I got close to 50 I decided to go back to the dark side which I first trained for in 86, cabin heat now and no more wind in my hair and 100kts is the norm for me now.

 

Still didn't enjoy the turbulence but dealt with it as that is what you do, the trike will take much more than most comfort zones will allow.

 

I still think triking on a good day is one of the best things you can do without taking your clothes off.

 

Enjoy your time in the fruit bat league and a great move to leave the instructor (or so called instructor who criticized you), you pay money to them and there job is to teach not bag you out.

 

Happy days to you

 

Alf

 

 

[Air Creation]

 

Hi Scott.. have you flown an Air Creation BioniX 13 wing on a Tanarg or Skypper trike.?

 

Not many Aussie trikers have flown our trikes and you may be surprisingly enlightened.

 

The BioniX 13 flight characteristics through thermals / bad air turbulence, the stability in cross wind landings and the precise control you have in command is perfect and easy.

 

Just returned from Yarrawonga Flight Training (Peter & McLean) after delivery of four new machines.. all great to fly, and we conducted some of the flight testing at midday with 15-20 knots..

 

Be certain to arrange a flight in a BioniX 13, you will enjoy the experience.

 

Chris

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm biased. I want control even when inverted. I want control above stability. Trikes do a job and are a challenge, if that is what you are after and they will have their adherants, always.. I wanna be boss and in control so it's a no brainer for me.

 

3 axis and STRONG. There are some really well made weightshift aircraft out there. I wish some of the 3 axis were as well made Nev