Democracy????

[farri]

i MUST belong, i MUST comply, or they will toss me in the pokey for a couple of years. Demockracy in action. Ozzie

I thought it best to start another thread,using Ozzies` quote from the thread," Will RAA Flying Remain Affordable", to ask the question I have!

 

Back when I was president of "The Far North Queensland Ultralight Association", the then CASA sport inspector addressed one of our meetings and we were told in no uncertain terms that CASA expected everyone to be part of a club and the AUF and if you weren`t you were a cowboy. This has never sat right with me and never will!

 

There are many good pilots out there who are not cowboys and choose to fly 95:10 and 95:25 rag and tube aircraft from their own property.

 

I`m trying to make a point here ,so please bear with me!.......I`ve been flying Ultralights since the mid eighties....Got it happening in this part of the country... created many members and pilots for AUF through my flying school on my own property... Now retired from all that, I choose to continue to fly my 95:25 Drifter,off my own property...I hold a level 2 mantasinence authority with no restrictions...I am the only one who works on my aircraft to keep it flying...I`m satisfied with the privilages we gained when we achieved, VFR flight to 5000` AMSL, OCTA!!!

 

Realy! I don`t need anyone to do anything for me other than to continue to take money off me to support others!

 

Everything that needed to be done, financialy and otherwise, by the AUF, to get 95:10/25 aircraft into existance,legally, was done way back then, 20 years ago!

 

Question:

 

Should those of us who choose to fly these AC, have to pay ever increasing fees for the direction that the RAA is going so that those who want to align themselves with GA and all that goes with it, get what they want???

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

It is simple Frank, CASA want to be able to make everyone traceable if they need to hunt you down. Everyone except GA pilots who are on file directly with CASA, so they are covered by them. Everyone else RC flyers, Glider pilots, HG and PG some trikes, Gyros, skydivers and us all have to be members of the applicable association or regulating body. Obvious that this is so every one is kept up to date with changes of operations and regs plus if you do something wrong you are more easily found for punishment. About two years ago i had a Scout owner contact me looking for parts we started talking about things and he had never heard of the AUF and RAAus. He was off the grid so to speak. So there must be a few more in the same boat. He had a Mk 2 Scout. Owned it since 1980. Self taught never pranged it just replaced bits and pieces as needed with what he had on site. Typical remote cockie. Try and get him to cough up dollars for what he don't need, i am sure he will sik the dogs onto who ever turns up at his door to try and collect it. Would i ever 'dob' him in? Bloody never! And i would go after anyone that would.

 

ozzie

 

 

[farri]

Ozzie, I know what the answer to my question should be but I want to see what others have to say!!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Depends what the Act says. Other DOTARS departments have compulsory licensing, eg car licences.

 

What happens sometimes is you get exemption from what the Act says subject to conditions laid down by the Department.

 

For example, years ago the Victorian Government administered buses through the Transport Regulation Board.

 

The Act only allowed two types of bus - an omnibus which was designed for mass transit ie no luggage capacity, and a coach which had upmarket seating and luggage compartments which wasn't suitable for route bus work.

 

Then the country school. bus operators went to the TRB and pointed out that to be viable they needed to do charter trips to the cities, so needed slightly better seats and some luggage capacity.

 

The TRB gave the exemption from the Act PROVIDED they complied with rules as dreamed up by the TRB. So they lost the protection of Parliamentary debate, and had to put up with rules which often were impractical and changed without notice. In the finish it all went down in a flaming heap, and the TRB is no more and our buses are just as safe.

 

While Governments like to deal with peak bodies because that usually ensures a common voice, there are plenty of precedents where sporting operations are conducted independently, and in fact the Trade Practices Act prevents organizations from controlling sports unless there's some compulsion written into the Act

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

... Obvious that this is so every one is kept up to date with changes of operations and regs ...ozzie

Just switch your radio on to hear that didn't work!

 

Separately, I heard of one situation where someone who had been flying all over Oz for many years, decided that he better get one of these new fangled Nav Endorsements, so flew halfway across Victoria to a flying school to do it.

 

(stop chuckling Ozzie..)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I am of two minds on this one. While i appreciate and understand the minimum movement that got us here, I can also appreciate the need for regulation and compliance.

 

The 'cockie' out west may have no need to join any new fangelled organisation, but the rest of us fly in areas shared by other aircraft. Once your wheels leave the ground we are all in the same boat. I take some minimal comfort in knowing that the guy in the other aircraft in the area has some training and knowledge of whats going on and whats expected of him.

 

I won't comment on the fee increase, but I will say this, if thats the price of our freedom, then ill happily pay it.

 

If you don't like it, stick your hands up for a position and get the ball rolling on some changes.THATS democracy in action.

 

cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

Fair go Motz, you're not advocating people actually get involved and do something are you?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol tubz..no mate, wouldn't dream of it....

 

 

[Yenn]

The fact of life is that we have RAAus and if we want to fly that type of aircraft, we have to join up and pay the fees. The problem seems to be that some of us want to stay flying 95-10 aircraft and some of us want to fly whatever is legal. If we look at the numbers of different types af aircraft it is pretty obvious that 95-10 is only a small percentage and democracy being what it is those pilots will have a small say. I don't think the average RAAus pilot wants to fly 95-10, they seem to want to fly plastic fantastic at 100+ kts and carry passengers. The ony way for 95-10 pilots to have a say democraticly seems to be if they start another group and I can't see CASA wearing that.

 

The big problem with democracy in this country is that it doesn't exist. We get to vote for people who make decisions for us and to make their life easier they employ beaurocrats who have only one agenda and that is to get bigger and more powerful. Just compare CASA with the US FAA. No comparison.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Isn't it interesting that RAA executives never seem to be interested enough to join in these discussions, and we are left to blame ourselves, or as Yenn is pointing to minorities.

 

We are still none the wiser for where our subscriptions are spent.

 

 

[turboplanner]

1. You didn't read what Ozzie had to say? It certainly concerned me; you didn't read the admin cost I posted? I've done it

 

2. Playing with confidentiality clauses in a Club/Association environment is dynamite - it shouldn't happen. The penalties if something is eventually found out to be wrong, are more severe than corporate

 

3. I specifically didn't mention Directors because I consider Ian's contribution in running this site is more than enough effort on our behalf. The other Directors? well I think they could possibly join in the debate. It's no different to private industry where the directors and managers in the most successful companies almost always sit in with their staff in free and frank brain storming on how to make the company better.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

the directors and managers in the most successful companies almost always sit in with their staff in free and frank brain storming on how to make the company better.

"Seen" to be doing something?

 

 

[turboplanner]

"Seen" to be doing something?

Not only seen to be doing something, but having success in reducing costs, improving quality of delivery, and being attentive to the requirements of every sector of their market.

 

I can recall General Motors having some quality problems with the Camira paint. At one of these meetings the spray painter pointed out that every time a nearby roller door opened to let a fork lift through, the wind spread dust on to the fresh paint. The group resolved the problem with a practical solution involving just a few sheets of plywood and a small amount of labour. Historically the guy would have been told to stop complaining and "fix it"

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Not only seen to be doing something, but having success in reducing costs, improving quality of delivery, and being attentive to the requirements of every sector of their market.I can recall General Motors having some quality problems with the Camira paint. At one of these meetings the spray painter pointed out that every time a nearby roller door opened to let a fork lift through, the wind spread dust on to the fresh paint. The group resolved the problem with a practical solution involving just a few sheets of plywood and a small amount of labor. Historically the guy would have been told to stop complaining and "fix it"

I worked for the General for many years at the Pagewood plant long long ago. (few years as a spray painter as well). They actively rewarded people to submit their ideas to improve production and reduce costs. They would hand out anything from 25 bucks from reporting air leaks to a new car for saving money on a production run. Spent a lot of time during breaks just walking around the plant looking to find a way to land the big one. always got something each month. Only ever heard of one car being given away. And that had to do with shortening the breather tube a couple of inches on the FB model grey motor. The motor sat slightly lower and did not need it as long as the earlier models. 2/3 inches less, times how many grey motors did they make? Must have been quite a few to save that much money. If you want your company to run more efficiently then you need to reward and encourage your staff.

Had a lot of fun and games doing my time there.

 

 

[dazza 38]

How about Golgate, getting a mob too tell them how too make more money in selling toothpast.They said make to opening of the toothpast tube larger, by around 20 percent.It worked apparently.Sorry back to topic.

 

 

[Yenn]

Hey Ozzie. I also worked at Pagewood as a mechanic at the end of the line in 1962. Things were different then, one man had to do the tappets and reroute the speedo cable on a car every 3 minutes. It was beyong GMH to get the speedo cable correctly routed the first time. That man was off sick one day and they put me on the line, about 6 cars later I had to hit the big red stop button, couldn't keep up. After that happening a couple of times I was back as a mechanic at the end.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Yenn i started with Leyland Australia at Zetland signed up for 7 years but they went bust after about my first 3 months. Amazing plant I was fascinated by the huge machine that took a plain cast engine block at one end and turned out a finished machined product at the other ready to assemble. Had a swarm of toolmakers and fitters swapping drills and taps etc constantly. GMH and Ford took most of the apprentices but the Sydney plants were assembly only so never learned as much as what i would have at Zetland if it stayed open. But i still use many of the skills i learned then today. production lines are incredibly complex to design and get right. I was with the General from the last year of the HQ to the almost the time it shut. I think that when you where there Pagewood was at it's peak production. That plant had some amazing history especially during the war. The old film studio down the back was a treasure trove. That southern area including the bus depot is now a Westfield shopping centre. The northern factory is still there but making cigarettes. For about the last year and a half i was also working for Steve Cohen after work for 6 hours a night then went full time with him. Had plenty of energy back then.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[Teckair]

Question:

 

Should those of us who choose to fly these AC, have to pay ever increasing fees for the direction that the RAA is going so that those who want to align themselves with GA and all that goes with it, get what they want???

 

Frank.

 

I don't think you should after all this is supposed to be affordable flying. I think there should be two categories, (1) basic affordable aircraft and (2) faster expensive defacto GA types. Anybody who wants 750 kg, controlled air space and all that stuff should pay for it themselves.

 

Richard.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

yep thats the way to go. If you want more you pay more. Why should the paddock bashers have to subsidise the higher end for the services they will never use.

 

Question: Should those of us who choose to fly these AC, have to pay ever increasing fees for the direction that the RAA is going so that those who want to align themselves with GA and all that goes with it, get what they want???

 

Frank.

I don't think you should after all this is supposed to be affordable flying. I think there should be two categories, (1) basic affordable aircraft and (2) faster expensive defacto GA types. Anybody who wants 750 kg, controlled air space and all that stuff should pay for it themselves.

 

Richard.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Teckair, you're right on the money. Now all you have to do is convince people to restructure RAA.

 

Just as a matter of interest, I looked at the top end of RA vs GA with the idea of swapping the RAA subscription for the medical fee, and dealing direct with CASA/Airservices Australia.

 

In the Melbourne area on current hire rates it will only cost me $36.00 per hour to fly a Warrior or C172 vs a Jabiru J170 and for that I get four seats, long range ability for someone to use a camera in the olpen (C172), less chance of a forced landing, and brakes!

 

Not only that, but to really be on the ball for unexpected crosswind gusts, wind shear and all the things that make the Jab bounce and swerve, if you are really honest with yourself, you have to spend more time on practice in the Jab in the landing phase (if you've never experienced these things so you don't believe they exist, you can skip this part)

 

So let's compare the hours of a casual recreational pilot

 

C172 30 hours x $176.00 = $5280.00

 

J170 30 hrs x $140.00 = $4,200 + 10 hrs x $140.00 = $1400, Total = $5600.00

 

You might like to change these figures around to suit your own experience, but based on the high number of RAA Magazine accident reports, and the number of people who hide behind the statement "If you can fly one of these, you can fly anything", I don't think the practice time is excessive.

 

My point is that there definitely should be layers of cost which match the budget of the aviator

 

 

[pudestcon]

In the Melbourne area on current hire rates it will only cost me $36.00 per hour to fly a Warrior or C172 vs a Jabiru J170 and for that I get four seats, long range ability for someone to use a camera in the olpen (C172), less chance of a forced landing, and brakes!

Another advantage tp, of going GA is you won't have to worry about keeping a board honest.

 

Pud

 

 

[Yenn]

So what do you want to do? Get rid of the GA type aircraft on the RAAus register, so you can go back to the old style flying. Maybe you can, but what about those of us who fly those GA type aircraft, are they going to quietly slink away? The problem is as the heading suggests democracy. If you invite new members with different views, it is easy for them to make life difficult. Don't let people vote for what you do not want and to do that you may have to deny them membership.

 

 

[turboplanner]

.....Eh?

 

 

[icebob]

Hi All,

 

first up I would like to thank you all for your different points of view, it sure has given me some things to think about. Originally i joined RAA because i developed diabetes and my CASA licences were in jeopardy, then the rules were relaxed, sure unable to keep my higher level licences but i do not use them now anyway. So do I now go back to PPL or stay with RAA.

 

Once again a lot to think about, it just feels like even when you vote that vote is meaningless against the organised mob keeping a certain member in/on the board. There are some organisations that like RAA have a board but you only get 2 terms of 3 consecutive years in any 15 years, sure stops the empire builders.

 

Again a lot to think about, thanks guys and gals.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

So what do you want to do? Get rid of the GA type aircraft on the RAAus register, so you can go back to the old style flying. Maybe you can, but what about those of us who fly those GA type aircraft, are they going to quietly slink away? The problem is as the heading suggests democracy. If you invite new members with different views, it is easy for them to make life difficult. Don't let people vote for what you do not want and to do that you may have to deny them membership.

Yenn i suppose what you are saying can go the other way as well. Do those flying the pseudo GA types expect those flying grass roots types are just going to go away? Plenty of room for all.

 

The point that has been made is that the grass roots types do not wish to subsidize those wanting more weight, more airspace access etc. And why should they? If you have read what Tony had said in that email to me it was pointed out that those in control considered the Grass roots types to be just a source of income to push what is considered their personal barrows. No one wishes to put your privileges on the line nor do they want you to be prevented from what you wish the RAAus to seek from CASA. They just do not wish to keep putting their hand in their pockets to pay for your increased privileges. All they want is what this 'sport' was started for way back in the seventies. Easily obtained and affordable flying in the airspace they were originally provided and with minimum of regulation. Blinkers off and see the bigger picture. Remember this. If it was not for those who started off this game you now would be flying your aircraft under the SAAA banner and would have VH rego on the tail.

 

Ozzie