What can i put in my Log Book?

[Acky]

Hi,

 

Just a question for those in the know. If i'm an RAA licenced pilot, and i fly in the Right hand seat of a Cessna, but actively participate in the nav etc, is it ok for me to log those hours as Dual hrs in my log book?

 

We flew over to Avalon and back for the airshow. It was a good experience for me, and a great weekend to boot!

 

Thanks.

 

Acky.

 

 

[djpacro]

If the pilot in command was an authorised instructor - then you need to ask him/her (it should've been clear beforehand when you signed out as a student at the flying school).

 

If your pilot was not an authorised instructor then take a look at CASA rules on who may operate the controls of an aeroplane.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

This probably falls into the gray areas of everything we do is the same as what GA does, apart from the limitations and exemptions written into the CAO's.

 

One example according to my limited understanding:

 

2 GA pilots (PPL) flying a Cessna/Piper together, 1 is PIC in left seat, the other actively assisting with Nav & Radio in the right seat. The PPL in the right seat can apparently log 50% of the hours. The CAO's don't specifically exclude this, but (currently) the RAAus Operations Manager does.

 

In my opinion, common sense in regards to Crew Resource Management and Human Factors would say that you can use all available resources in the cockpit.

 

I have both HGFA and RAAus trike pilot certificates and trikes registered with both organistions, but only keep a HGFA pilots logbook. Though this is probably less contentious since both organisations administer trikes under the same CAO's (except HGFA is working on getting (re)included in 95.10 at the moment after being told they were never in it, despite previous advice that where you read RAAus that means HGFA too).

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[facthunter]

I would believe that unless the aircraft is designed to be operated by 2 (or more) crew, in which case you would have to be endorsed already or under training, then you can not log it at all except under "passenger or supernumerary".

 

Re the 1/2 time for co-pilot's time that only relates to total aeronautical experience calculations. (Funny how the co-pilot is only supposed to be half there). Under co-pilot time (in the correct column) it is logged fully.

 

I believe there are some pilots who are specifically permitted to endorse other pilots on certain aircraft. This would not apply in RAAus as we don't have aircraft specific endorsements as such. Nev

 

 

[flyinghigh]

Hi,Just a question for those in the know. If i'm an RAA licenced pilot, and i fly in the Right hand seat of a Cessna, but actively participate in the flying and nav etc, is it ok for me to log those hours as Dual hrs in my log book?

Simple answer: no. You're an RAAus licensed pilot, flying in a GA aircraft. You are not licensed to fly that aircraft. Sure, if it was a GA instructional flight, and the flight was logged out as such, then yes, it would be dual. But that it the only time you could log it dual.

 

In RAAus, there is only ever one PIC. You cannot share or swap PIC duties during a flight: the person who signs out the aircraft at the start of the flight must remain PIC for the duration. If you are 'sharing' an aircraft, the only way two people can both log hours is for first person to fly to destination, then second person must sign-out for the next flight. There's a good reason for this: insurance and responsibility. If there is an accident, the person who signed out the aircraft will be recorded as the PIC by the investigators, and will be the one held responsible from a legal perspective. That person is responsible for all aspects of flight, including navigation.

 

We flew over to Avalon and back for the airshow. It was a good experience for me, and a great weekend to boot!

Make a note in your personal diary, or put a sticky note in your log book for your personal reference: it'll be good to look back in 10 years to revisit the experience. And yes, flying into Avalon is a fantastic experience, and it's something to be remembered!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

2 GA pilots (PPL) flying a Cessna/Piper together, 1 is PIC in left seat, the other actively assisting with Nav & Radio in the right seat. The PPL in the right seat can apparently log 50% of the hours.

I don't know if CASA allow this in Australia but it isn't the case overseas - if its a single-crew aircraft then, by definition, there is no co-pilot role therefore the PPL in the right seat can't log anything.

 

DJ is correct - unless it was a training flight with an instructor you were just a passenger (albeit a helpful & informed one). You could still record the flight details in your logbook but the hours can't be entered (unless your logbook has a "Pax-for Interest only" column).

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Acky]

Thanks guys, seems like it's an overwhelming "No" Unfortunately. I was hoping there was a way it would count under Total Aeronautical Experience.

 

I enjoyed the time in a slightly larger xpndr quipped aircraft, equipped to track to VOR's and NDB's, as well as the flying into a fairly busy environment.

 

I think i might record the flights and some notes in my logbook, but not include hours.

 

Thanks.

 

Acky.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes unfortunately, if you touched any of the controls, including radio's or radio navaids then your friend was breaking some rules and you probably shouldn't record it anywhere, even in here..;)

 

 

[Acky]

lucky i was maps and charts boy :)

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I expect the converse would also be true, and that having a CTA qualified PPL as a Pax in your RAAus aircraft doesn't help with a legal CTA entry, except perhaps to improve your chances of getting a green light by writing to CASA 28 days in advance.

 

 

[desert goat]

Acky-I'm not meaning to take a shot at you mate, but when you have a question like this you are FAR better off to look up the relevant rule on CASA's website, rather than relying on the opinions of unknown people on this forum who may or may not know/remember the particular rule in question. Taking legal advice from unknown sources can get you into a world of hurt.

 

 

[kaz3g]

...take a look at CASA rules on who may operate the controls of an aeroplane.

The rules are strict and you can't manipulate the controls or otherwise perform any functions of a pilot unless you are either flying with an instructor or have been authorised by one to fly solo and are endorsed for the particular type of aeroplane, or hold the appropriate licence and endorsements

 

So (in GA at least) you can't legally get your wingless boyfriend to do the navigating while you fly; you can't let your tricycle undercart endorsed mate fly your taildragger; and you can't use your RA licence for GA activities or vice versa.

 

kaz

 

 

[redozbris]

Thanks guys, seems like it's an overwhelming "No" Unfortunately. I was hoping there was a way it would count under Total Aeronautical Experience. I enjoyed the time in a slightly larger xpndr quipped aircraft, equipped to track to VOR's and NDB's, as well as the flying into a fairly busy environment.

I think i might record the flights and some notes in my logbook, but not include hours.

 

Thanks.

 

Acky.

My thoughts due to my limited knowledge would be, even if you cant write them down, the experience will make you a better pilot, even if its a little bit better... Wish I could have got down there!!

 

 

[Hildy]

if I am being shown around a school plane by a CFI (but flying within the restrictions of my certificate: ie not actively being under instruction), does that count as IC, ICUS, or dual?

 

if I am being shown around a private plane by a private owner (with a view to hiring in the future), what can that be logged as?

 

if I own a plane, can I charge more for the first flight to account for the greater risk to the plane?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Hildy; Let me translate for Cficare. He's a man of few words

 

You will have to be specific. You have posted in a thread about an RAA student flying in a GA aircraft with a GA pilot whom we presume is not an instructor in either GA or RAA, and that question has already been answered.

 

Aviation law / regulations are very specific. It is impossible to give a generic answer. Actually that isn't quite true. The generic answer is:-

 

It is your log book. You can record anything you like in it, however it

 

is a legal document

 

and there are regulations that govern

 

what minimum information you must record

 

for each flight as well as

 

the circumstances under which the hours can be accumulated against different categories.

 

How does your case differ from that previously described?

 

 

[Hildy]

david: if I am flying a plane (in the left seat) that I am legally entitled to fly (ie RA registered, HP, NW, etc) with an instructor on board. what determines if this is logged as dual hours, or as in charge hours? presume that the plane belongs to the instructor and that I am renting it from him.

 

what if the person in the right seat is not an instructor but just another pilot?

 

 

[djpacro]

david: if I am flying a plane (in the left seat) that I am legally entitled to fly (ie RA registered, HP, NW, etc) with an instructor on board. what determines if this is logged as dual hours, or as in charge hours? presume that the plane belongs to the instructor and that I am renting it from him.

One of you will be pilot in command. If it is the instructor then you are either undertaking dual instruction or you are a passenger. If you are the pilot in command then the other person is a passenger.

what if the person in the right seat is not an instructor but just another pilot?

Similar to above - simply delete the option of one person being an instructor.So, you need to work it out before you get in the aeroplane. Perhaps the instructor and/or owner of the aeroplane will make the decision with or without your input.

Of course, if I was a passenger in an aeroplane that I owned I can see myself not simply sitting quietly and watching if I thought the pilot was going to damage the aeroplane but that's another question.

 

 

[poteroo]

AFIK - an instructor is an instructor, is an instructor, is an instructor, is an instructor. There is never/rarely a time when an instructor sits in the RH seat with a non-instructor in the LH seat - that the instructor is not the PIC - always providing that the instructor is type endorsed and rated for the flight category. You log the hrs as dual if RAA PC or GA PPL, and you might log them ICUS if you are a GA CPL. If you are a junior instructor flying with a CFI or ATO - you log it dual. You can argue over this until the proverbial cows come home - but no instructor would sit there and not intervene if safety was to be compromised, because in the ATSB report they'll wear the blame. And you can bet that when it all turns to ****, the LH seat occupant will be looking to the instructor to pleeeeeze takeover.

 

It's not important who is in the RH seat in other instances, except that if you are PIC, you must ensure that the other pilot realises this and does not interfere in any way. You log the hrs as PIC - they log nothing except perhaps air experience.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

david: if I am flying a plane (in the left seat) that I am legally entitled to fly (ie RA registered, HP, NW, etc) with an instructor on board. what determines if this is logged as dual hours, or as in charge hours?

Pre-solo you are Dual Received. After you have gone solo, you log as PIC, regardless of whether the instructor is in the aircraft or not, as long as you are flying it. So your first solo flight was the first you logged as PIC. If you were then to go for a flight with the instructor where he was flying and you were learning something different, for instance a different type of aircraft, then you would be Dual Received for that flight.

 

presume that the plane belongs to the instructor and that I am renting it from him.

It makes no difference who owns the aircraft.

 

what if the person in the right seat is not an instructor but just another pilot?

One of you is PIC and the other is a passenger. The determination of who is PIC is by agreement before the flight+. The seat does not determine PIC.

Any other opinions?

 

*Note. I'm not an instructor, but this is my understanding.

 

+ Corrected from DJPs response. Thanks DJP :-)

 

 

[djpacro]

The determination of who is PIC is by agreement and it can change during the flight by handing over to the other pilot. ..... Any other opinions?

Yes, another opinion. I think you'll find the regs require that one PIC be specified for the flight.

[Hildy]

Pre-solo you are Dual Received. After you have gone solo, you log as PIC, regardless of whether the instructor is in the aircraft or not, as long as you are flying it. So your first solo flight was the first you logged as PIC. If you were then to go for a flight with the instructor where he was flying and you were learning something different, for instance a different type of aircraft, then you would be Dual Received for that flight.

Then there's about 5 PIC hours missing from my logbook.

 

do you have a reference to logging PIC with an instructor in the plane?

 

 

[ahlocks]

.... After you have gone solo, you log as PIC, regardless of whether the instructor is in the aircraft or not, as long as you are flying it.

Sorry Davo, the above statement doesn't gel with the ops manual.

 

Pilot in Command (PIC) - For RAAus student purposes - Solo flight time;

 

http://www.raa.asn.au/opsmanual/Abbrev%20&%20Definitions.pdf

 

If the Instructor is not PIC, he/she is a passenger, whom you can't carry as PIC until you have your certificate and pax endo. http://www.raa.asn.au/opsmanual/2-07.pdf

 

Cheers!

 

 

[facthunter]

Dual is where you are receiving instruction from a person qualified to do so.

 

In command is where you are qualified and fly the plane (alone or with passengers). Doesn't matter from which seat but IF from the right seat it must be a legal possibility. (permitted).and I would sugget that you be trained in it.

 

ICUS where you are flying the plane in a command situation but are being supervised or assessed by another pilot, who is qualified on the type.

 

These are my words by way of explanation. Use a reference to the appropriate CASA documents for the final statement. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Sorry Davo, the above statement doesn't gel with the ops manual.Pilot in Command (PIC) - For RAAus student purposes - Solo flight time;

 

http://www.raa.asn.au/opsmanual/Abbrev & Definitions.pdf

 

If the Instructor is not PIC, he/she is a passenger, whom you can't carry as PIC until you have your certificate and pax endo. http://www.raa.asn.au/opsmanual/2-07.pdf

 

Cheers!

Ok. Happy to stand corrected. :-)

..but could this also be interpreted as simply indicating that a Student, who is obviously not a Pilot and therefore would otherwise not be entitled to log as PIC, may do so if they are the only one manipulating the controls of the aircraft and have been designated as PIC by the CFI, who is required to Supervise Solo flights.

 

So rather than your view of RAA PIC definition being a limiting clause, it could be an enabling clause?

 

Is there anything that says the flight cannot be supervised by the CFI while on-board?

 

Needless to say that the proof of "First Solo" to achieve that milestone, must be performed without the CFI / Instructor on-board, as that is a test.

 

 

[facthunter]

A student pilot IS a Pilot but with restrictions. You have a student pilot certificate and a student pilot licence. ( RAAus /GA).

 

CFI supervised solo navex. The pilot flies solo (alone) the CFI has to be responsible for ensuring the whole solo nav process is done right..

 

There must never be any doubt WHO is in command. While it is a simple matter to say the instructor ALWAYS is, a pilot may be doing a BFR in a very exclusive aeroplane that HE/SHE built and has 15,000 hours up and 2,000 on this aeroplane and he is doing a BFR with an instructor who has never flown that aircraft, and has 150 hours total time, it would be very presumptuous of the instructor to say "If anything goes wrong, I will take over". he probably has the legal right to take over but AT THE INQUIRY, he would look like an idiot., if something went wrong, that was due to his performance..

 

Doing a trip with 2 people sharing the cost/hire why couldn't they alternate who flys each leg? Again there must be no doubt WHO is in command. If something goes wrong with the donk why couldn't the PIC say something like. I reckon you would do a better job of putting this thing down, than me. Do you want to do it? A good bit of human resource management. Nev