motzartmerv Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 As apposed to wing tanked aeroplanes iggy??.. this notion of being 'more careful' is a bit strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Moving body mounted fuel tank could very probably have great effect on C of G. This crash was never going to have a good ending. On lift of at full power at approx vehicle height the aircraft started to bank left moving across the runway. By the time it reached hanger roof height it was knife edged. LH wing tip ran along dirt for some distance nearly in a straight line as lift was lost prior to prop/engine hitting the ground still at full power. Fire started very near prop strike prior to cartwheeling down the dirt beside the strip on fire. While no expert, the impact of this crash I think would have defeated any tank protection or type. I think the broken loose engine would have crushed anything...or the impact anyway if not the engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Slarti, I didn't realize the engine impact was so significant..so yes, not hard to understand why the tank was damaged. The pilot did do a great job of getting himslf out. If the main tank does double as the sump, how about a smaller one under the floor like most Cessnas have ?.. with the fuel in the wings. I mean the Savannah has a ten liter sump tank behind the seats, but ten liters ain't a hundred liters is it. The fuelsafe bladder type tanks don't look like a bad option either. I like Garrys planes a lot...doesn't hurt to try to make them safer does it ?..................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Nope...try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV8A Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 A flexible product is readily available that could be used to assist keeping fuel out of the cockpit in an accident. Its essentially the same material as used in inflatable boats and fuel bladders etc (like Hypalon). Its something I am thinking might be useful to make a skirt or outer bladder in the Sierra. As it has been said - seconds make the differance. I was talking to a rep from Germany the other week whos company manufactures woolen felts used in the construstion of seats in highspeed trains in Europe. Their woolen felts go between the seat outer fabric and the foam base. The proven fact is that this product acts as basic heat resistance between the seat cover and the foam in the event of an accident and fire. The seconds of fire resistance it offers before it is compromised the toxic foam base is ignited by fire, is worth the expense to the train manufacturers! It also isnt toxic like normal synthetic fibre or flammable. The little things... I should also mention the company I work for manufactures such coated fabrics used in the construction of fuel bladders, inflatable boats etc. But the thought of using this material only just occured to me as I am not directly involved with this paticular product. Nor is my intention to sell or promote this product. I am just mentioning it in the name of safety only and mentioning my involvement as I would like to remain transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 In race cars there's a chain of defence, not forgetting that in that environment, every race can see a major collision where in flying very few people would experience a single collision in their lives. The first line is a strong, damage resistant tank with high quality welding to minimise potential cracking or bursting and fittings, hoses which are unlikely to crack or burst (that would eliminate some of the lightweight tanks I've seen) The second line is, if tank damage is going to occur (as in an accident of the severity of this one) that tank can do a plastic deform rather than burst, thus containing the fuel, so a very strong, but deformable material is required. Aluminium grade would be important, fibreglass deforms a lot but then cracks, spilling the contents. The next line is if the damage is so bad it splits or breaks the tank, then the fuel doesn't escape quickly to fuel a fireball which with about a hundred litres can be 6 metres high and completely envelope the vehicle. The foam described above, and small tanks can be used here. The next line, if this happens is that occupants are wearing fireproof underwear (nomex or similiar) a one, two or three layer nomex or similar suit and head covering, and no nylon socks or underwear, and with this condition a person is likely to survive in a fireball condition for 30 to 40 seconds. The next line is to hit the seat of the fire with portable extinguishers. This size fire will start to reflash as you move to the next part, but will delay injury until you can get foam backup, which is usually vehicle mounted. The next line is a foam/water system, maybe worth $2000.00 and usually on a vehicle. The guy with the portable moves forward, hits the seat of the flame and steps back and the foam guy covers the fuel to prevent reflash, allowing the portable guy to move closer, and the procedure's repeated. Some of these things can be adapted to flying. For example, some people wear a flying suit, and there's no reason they couldn't use a $600.00 fire suit instead. I knew one drag racer who had to have plastic surgery because he wore nylon socks instead of wool. And fire drills, and readily available fire equipment at an airfield are worth looking at. 30 seconds is quite a long time if everyone knows where the portable units are, and fund raising for a trailer type foam unit is not unreasonable. But tank construction is the real key - you could be cuddling it if it doesn't split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Heon, sorry I missed your post. Sounds like you witnessed this accident, if so my heart also goes out to you, that would have been a horrible sight. I feel it highly unlikely that what you described was pilot induced, and also doesn't sound like a stall with a wing drop. Sounds like this poor old fella was the victim of some sort of rigging or control failure, surely not aileron reversal.? Its a real tragedy and I hope they are able to get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later, its a proven design and becoming very popular. Lets hope the pilot pulls through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 A FULL tank is more likely to rupture than a part filled one, for obvious reasons. Heon, regarding CofG, the contents is the majority of the weight of a tank. IF the plane balances without any fuel in it. ( as it must, because useable fuel cannot be used to keep a plane in balance). The location of the tank in these aircraft would cause a fair amount of trim change from full to empty, but that is not the main issue here. IF the description of the crash is correct (and I have no reason whatever to suggest otherwise), the impact would be very violent. and the poor victim must have sustained injuries. Being on fire is no doubt a strog motivation to find the strength required. Consideration of fire compatibility is a worthy subject. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 No motzartmerv I did not view it personally. As I said in my post 17 the local CFI did (with whom I viewed the site that afternoon), and there is a vidio, and the strip users have spent considerable time talking with CFI and another hanger holder that arrived just after the event. This bloke is currently putting larger engine in his full sized self built Spitfire and was affected to extent of expressing intention of installing foam system in aircraft and purchasing complete set of fire proof clothing for his test flights...his description of the pilot I will not put in print...makes one think death is not the worst that can happen to you. I arrived after the event as I had received a call from a wife who had been phoned on the crash and was (very) concerned as our club was returning from a trip to Avalon and SA that afternoon...we had all arrived (safely) a bit earlier in afternoon. In talking on accident cause we have ideas at the strip but it rearly should be up to the investigation. Aireron reversal motzartmerv unlikely (vidio...second hand information) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ok Heon, apologies for missing that. I hope you all are able to overcome this and put it behind you. We havnt had a major accident at our club, but its always in the back of your mind what if??... Unfortunately on a long enough timeline its inevitable that something like this will happen to someone we know, its just like anything we do, there is always a risk. Little comfort i know to you and the gentleman and his family now. Lets hope he pulls through and flies again. Fly safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Responding to Motz's earlier thread about easily ignited fuel there was a jet fuel called JP4 (from memory) that was an alternative. In civil operations in australia I believe it was never used. Overseas there may not be be a choice. Avtur is less volatile. Starting a fire is an interesting thing. Apparently lube oil on a red hot pipe will start a fire easier than petrol. While this seems improbable, the reason is the mixture strength. Hydrocarbons will only ignite when the mixing ratio is in a certain range. If you are richer (or leaner) than the range it will not ignite. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Ouch! Not cool at all... :thumb_down: Unfortunately fuel is just rather ignitable, so no matter where it is on the aircraft, a burst tank or line near heat or spark etc... is gonna go up. Hope those effected will recover from it all, particularly the pilot, and his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Facto, JP4 was one of the desiginators given to military avtur. JP7 for instance was the special fuel developed for sole use in the SR-71 Blackbird. Because those aircraft leaked profusley on the ground, the fuel would destroy the normal black rubber tires in short order. A special grey rubber that was JP7 resistant, was developed for the Blackbird, so that the aircraft had some tires to land on when they returned..................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Just to add to the above posts, JP5 was used on aircraft carriers, because it has a higher flash point than JP4 .Designed in the fifties i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 All discussion on fuel tanks aside, I have been thinking of our fellow aviator lying on his back in the burns unit. After suffering a similiar fate back in 1974 after an aircraft accident, where I also spent several months in care, I can tell you that severe depression is going to be one of the problems our friend will have to deal with. This can be bought on by a combination of his situation, and the painkillers that he will also be on. Frankly folks it's pretty damn depressing just laying on your back 24/7. Nothing cheered me up more back then, than a visit from a fellow flyer or friend. Even a short five minute visit can put a small smile on your the rest of the day, and can turn yet another depressing day into a much happier day. Is there anyone down there in the SE corner who may be able to get in contact with the family, or hospital ward, and see if a visit would be a good idea at the moment, or in the future ?.................Tomo, Dazza, anyone ? If you do find the time to visit, do not dwell on, or bring up the accident itself (unless he wishes to discuss it), but bring up more positive subjects like all of us on the forum who have him in mind, or the fact that he did a very good job of getting himself out of the aircraft, or anything else that may be positive for him. A visit like this can be a bit of work emotionally, but bare in mind it may really make his day, and could make a big difference to his recovery.............................Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swanny Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Just a note as i know the family. The pilot is stable in an induced coma and the doctors are quietly confident about his condition. There is a long road adhead for him. so please keep him in your thoughts and prayers. Just some notes to set your minds at ease. The aircraft had wing tanks fitted (no fuel in test ) main tank only approx 30l on board The aircraft structure protected the pilot as no other injuries were sustained he walked away unasisted Thanks to thoses on site the paramedics and doctors that stabalised him you surely saved his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV8A Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks Swanny for letting us know how he is going. Is he a member of this forum? Can we ask his name at the very least so we can aleast stop referring to him as 'the pilot'. I hope you don't think I was being insenitive by raising the question on fuel tanks - but as we are pretty much self regulated, if we don't discuss - we dont learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks Swanny for letting us know how he is going. Is he a member of this forum? Can we ask his name at the very least so he can aleast stop referring to his as 'the pilot'. I hope you don't think I was being insenitive by raising the question on fuel tanks - but as we are pretty much self regulated, if we don't discuss - we dont learn. Same here, We need to know his name, so we can visit him if he would like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks for the update Swanny, he is certainly in our thoughts and prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swanny Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks AV8A and Dazza no he isn't a member of this forum and thay appreciate the concerns of the members. The family have asked us not to mention his name so the pilot it is Preliminary investigations have indicated that he did every thing correctly and mechanical failure is suspected. The fuel issue needs to be looked at by RAA I believe as they have the expertise and they are our governing body. We must learn from this so question them. How many other aircraft carry their fuel there and what safe guards are in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Is the fuselage tank in the Morgan aicraft fibreglass or metal? I used to own/fly an early Sportstar with the fuse tank. It was a metal tank located behind the seats and seperated from the cockpit by the floor/bulkheads. I gave this fuel position alot of thought while making the decision to buy that aircraft. One postitve about not having fuel in the wings is if you have to make a forced landing amongst trees and you line it up so that the fuse goes between trees and the trees take the wings off there should be no fuel spill. I think I would be more hesitant about fuel up front where it would be more vunerable to damage as the fuse crumples in an impact. Hope the pilot makes a quick recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dad Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Ignition, The sonex has 60 litres, about 40 litres less than a sierra, in a rotationally molded polyethelyne fuel tank above your legs in as much the same position as many aircraft. May I ask where you got this, "The Sonex, I believe has fuel around the entire cockpit... that is more of a concern then above the legs in my opinion..", as this is the type of inuendo is misleading. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swanny Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks cficare Will keep informed of his condition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AV8A Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 c'mon boys...get over it....if as described the pilot is suffering the burns as described....he needs every bit of help we can muster.. I would of thought contructive discussion to prevent another pilot from enduring the same ordeal in the future would be helping. How can we help this pilot anymore directly? We don't even know his name. As I said before I didnt raise the issue to be offensive. Can we nominate a bank account or somthing and put the hat around for this guy? Swanny would you be prepared to administer somthing like this on this fellas behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Those who know the design and service history of the Piper Pawnee ag plane will be aware that fuel tanks in this location, especially if made of fibreglass, have the worst history of post impact fires. Many good people were hurt or killed because of that design judgement, including quite a number in Australia and New Zealand. Pawnee designer Fred Weick stated that he had hoped the simplicity of the fuel system would offset the vulnerable location. He candidly noted that judgement to be wrong, as shown by history. The Pawnee design was changed in the later D models to wing tanks. Proior to this, wing tanks were a mandatory mod in New Zealand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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