Achieving more balanced turns?

[Gnarly Gnu]

Y'all are such a great source of RA wisdom I thought I might toss in another question...

 

I'm not really happy with my turns. When I drive a car I like to be very precise but I just haven't gotten there yet in terms of having nicely balanced turns without having to take a quick glance at the ball each time & then adjust. If I'm busy doing other things mid turn as often happens I find my aileron is starting to work against the rudder (a slip I think but I might have this wrong).

 

So what to do? Is there an exercise I can practice, do I need to be more sensitive to the feeling in my bum (yeah yeah no jokes please ) or is this just something that improves naturally with hours?

 

Chris

 

 

[turboplanner]

Same as when you started to play table tennis/golf/football etc.

 

When you are authorised to go out to the training area practice them out there away from the distractions of power settings/radio calls etc. - you can look a little longer until it clicks

 

 

[rocket1172]

Practice, practice, practice. When I was flying Ag in AT502's, it was important to have balanced turns so minimal crossfeed of fuel between wings could occur. Its much easier to achieve this with 300+ turns a day. But practice is the key and the ball is there for that reason. Is the aileron working into the turn or out of the turn?

 

 

[Thirsty]

I'm in the same boat mate (and at the same field!). My solution - take your wife with you :) I took my wife for her first flight with me today and I'd already told her about my instructor (James) constantly saying "ball!" so she started doing it :) It really works 'cause I don't have the feel yet. Hope that helps :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Have you tried rolling on the ball?...or point rolling??

 

 

[maddogmorgan]

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Every aircraft is slightly different, depending on a whole bunch of factors that are less important at this time. So assuming you are flying just one aircraft, this is what I suggest. Jabs, as per your tag( 120/160 are pretty good but with the longer wing 170/230's slightly more adverse yaw)

 

Firstly HORIZON IS PRIMARY REFERENCE. Learn at what point in initial roll your aircraft begins to slip. Looking at the horizon( shouldn't have taken your eyes off it!). Initiate the roll then caress the rudder until you see a co-ordinated movement of the nose towards the direction of roll - Remember slip is soon followed by initial spiral descent(secondary and further effects). if you don't effect the balance early, and in the correct amount then the nose begins to drop so then you will have a masked problem.Polish the trifecta off with just enough pitch to hold the attitude for the turn and bingo! you've got it.

 

My suggestion is try with gentle turns early, then as mentioned in other posts try reversals on a point.

 

I must stress that all this is reality is in the realm of your flight school and I'm sure they will be more than happy to assist.

 

This is complex to explain in the forum environment and in reality a good instructor should be able to clearly demonstrate the correct sequencing, what happens if you get any of the 3 inputs wrong, and as a result the "feel" you are looking for. This is all covered in the turning brief/flight so I hope none of this is coming as a surprise.

 

Finally as mentioned, practice, practice, practice- and if you still want more, go try in gliders- the string will be you friend!

 

 

[Ultralights]

get a broom stick, sit down on a chair, put the broom on the ground, with your feet either side of the stick, hold the stick between your legs, in the hand you use to fly with, push stick left and right, and your feet will follow. its not much but it helps with initial co-ordination

 

 

[slartibartfast]

get a broom stick, sit down on a chair, put the broom on the ground, with your feet either side of the stick, hold the stick between your legs, in the hand you use to fly with, push stick left and right, and your feet will follow. its not much but it helps with initial co-ordination

If I practise that way, the wife will tell me to stick to my plane and stop using hers.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have been flying for a few years, possibly more than most of you and I still need to look at the ball to guarantee a balanced turn. It is no problem really as it only takes a quick glance, but I just can't seem to feel it as I am supposed to. So don't worry too much about it, you won't fall out of the sky and you will still be able to keep a good lookout.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

If I practise that way, the wife will tell me to stick to my plane and stop using hers.

Brilliant Slarti, brilliant. If she reads that i got a good idea where the broom handle ends up.

 

 

[rgmwa]

get a broom stick, sit down on a chair, put the broom on the ground, with your feet either side of the stick, hold the stick between your legs, in the hand you use to fly with, push stick left and right, and your feet will follow. its not much but it helps with initial co-ordination

Good idea, although the neighbours might think their suspicions were finally confirmed.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[rgmwa]

If I practise that way, the wife will tell me to stick to my plane and stop using hers.

:clap2:

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Thanks for the helpful tips folks, appreciate that. The 'L-R rolling' method whilst keeping the ball central isn't taught where I am so I'm keen to give that a try. Never heard of the broomstick method but hey sure, I've done crazier things. The per hour cost is good too.

 

 

[Guernsey]

get a broom stick, sit down on a chair, put the broom on the ground, with your feet either side of the stick, hold the stick between your legs, in the hand you use to fly with, push stick left and right, and your feet will follow. its not much but it helps with initial co-ordination

Hi everybody, my apologies for not answering this earlier as I am currently in hospital. I tried the above with devastating results!!!

 

I sat on a chair in the kitchen which has a tiled floor so as I moved the stick (broom handle) my foot slipped on the tiles which caused the chair to tilt forward onto one leg then went through three very violent spins and

 

smashed my nose into the floor. Stick forward and opposite foot forward did nothing to save me so I am now in hospital with a damaged nose cowl and undercarriage. My broom handle was also fractured (very painful ) and required an operation. They have glued the fracture with a mixture of araldite and viagara and put it in a splint, it seems to be holding up quite well but I have beome the laughing stock of the hospital with frequent visits by the nurses and female students. Needless to say my wife is livid as she is not currently able to make use of my broom handle until the fracture mends.

 

Next time anyone wants to suggest a similar flying exercise please bear in mind that there is always some silly person on this forum who will try it.

 

By the way, I think I have now spoiled any chances I may of had of becoming a Board Member, just imagine the stories you would get of what happened at the last Board Meeting.

 

Alan.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Sounds like your lucky to be alive.

 

 

[Alpi]

Whats the viagara for, keep the sheets off your legs ?

 

Greg

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

I haven't stopped laughing for two days. Had to have my appendix out- they used a broomstick to do keyhole surgery- don't ask where they went in:roflmao:

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

OK improving a little. A couple of things I found:

 

1. Think I was tending to hold the stick a little too firmly, now more of a nudge or semi open hand
    
    
   
2. In turbulent / gusty conditions I'm probably chasing it too much mid turn. Smooth conditions are generally not a problem to balance in of course.
    
    
   

 

 

 

 

[Dieselten]

Short piece of wool sticky-taped to the middle of the windscreen? Just keep it in the middle.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Hi Ned, i suggested this on the previous page but some don't think it will work with the fan up front. I think it can, but waiting for someone to try it and confirm. Have you done this on your Jab.

 

 

[facthunter]

The fan is certainly going to affect it, just as changing power changes the rudder needed to keep the ball in the centre on a low speed climb (with high power). Just try going from idle to full power and back off to idle smoothly, and see how much rudder you need to keep the ball centred. When you enter and leave a steep turn you have possible adverse aileron effect as you roll in (or out) and once established, the need for less aileron "IN" the turn. Each aeroplane is different

 

The entry into a steep turn and exit requires the coordination to be very precise as you have considerable power changes as well as maintaining bank angle and holding pitch back in the turn and pushing forward exiting the turn We probably don't practice entering and exiting steep turns as often as we should. IF you are good at this, most of the other aspects of manoeuvering the plane will be easier for you. Your height variation should be less than 50 feet. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I was thinking more along the lines of holding a constant power setting ie cruise power then kick in some rudder and hold it for a bit and observe the reaction to the tuft of wool then do the same with the aileron. Another little test would be to hang small weight from a piece of string inside the aircraft and repeat the exercise.

 

The tuft of wool does not work all that well in the Lazair as the two props create a strange negative pressure forward airflow about eye level. I dropped a small sheet of paper once with some directions written on it and to my surprise instead of blowing back onto my chest it went forward then left and then back out of arms reach. weird

 

 

[Dieselten]

Hi Ozzie,

 

Haven't tried the bit of wool on the windscreen trick, after all these years I'm still checkin' the ball from time to time. Can't be holding my mouth right or something! When the littel Jab gets an engine back up front to make some noise perhaps I'll stick a piece on and see what happens. Wouldn't take more than a few minutes to find out.

 

 

[facthunter]

I am a great fan of the piece of wool. In the freestream it can give you angle of attack and slip indication. IF you made an allowance for the corkscrew effect of the prop wash you could get some info, but everytime you changed power, you would need a new datum. Nev