J230 LSA Visitor

[Guest brentc]

Hello All.

 

Thought I'd post this for your interest. This is the latest J230 LSA from the factory (factory built). It came down from Bundaberg last week prior to heading off to Perth on Tuesday.

 

It goes nicely and has lots of extra's. TAS is around 120 knots in the cruise at 2,800rpm around 1,500 - 2,000 ft.

 

For those with J200 - J230's, you might notice that the header tank has now been placed at the rear under where the rear seat would go if it was a 4-seater. It seems that this was required as the Positec cooler is quite a bit heavier than the old one.

 

 

 

 

[glenns]

:hug:Very Nice

 

 

[Alan]

I have about 60 hours up in my J230c (LSA factory Built, delivered October 06 has header tank in the rear cabin) and it has been a very pleasant experience to own. However, does anybody else think the throttle knobs look agricultural (no offence intended to farmers)?

 

The LSA rules are very tight on what can be added or changed including the throttle knobs. There is no doubting their functionality, but personally I think they look poor.

 

The 230 seating has no adjustment and when my wife flies she has to sit on a large booster cushion - we fabricated one out of different density foam and covered it. Now like a car race driver she swaps the cushion from side to side depending on her role during that flight.

 

The main wheel spats were inclined to come loose at first. The screws then got loctited which fixed the problem untill the brakes had to be adjusted (55 hrs) when they were a devil of a job to undo. The hot soldering iron on the head of the screw trick helped but not much.

 

During the ordering procedure I was not made of what options were available. eg My Dynon EFIS can display AOA, but the special pitot was an extra option. The level warning light in the header tank is also an option

 

(only approx a few minutes of fuel left - power off now, but a few usefull bursts of power left to help with that outlanding. If you are ever silly enough to runout of fuel that is. But I believe it happens) is also an option. A Landing light option (CASA recommendation please leave landing light on below 10,000 I believe) was available but never mentioned. All these things can be retro fitted as they are LSA approved. But the hassle factor involved........

 

I regard the above items really only minor gripes. Once I got used to the slippery nature of the beast espcially after the flare and the speed (is this really an ultralight?), it has been a real pleasure to fly this all Australian product.

 

NB. We have just had four dry days, but I was busy with work. - It is raining again today - No flying. It has rained more or less solidly since mid January. The weather station at our lab showed we have exceeded 2m of rain ( I have not looked recently it is too depressing). So we are not getting much flying in. I have great sympathy with those in drought, but at least you can fly.

 

Alan

 

 

[Captain]

Nice set of notes, Alan

 

Alan

 

 

 

I thought the same thing about the throttle knobs and turned some up in aluminium .... see pic below. I like them better, but am not LSA.

 

 

 

Have also moved the Carb heat cable and flap activation switch to next to each other near the top left of the panel for easier left hand activation ... but I'm not flying yet so we'll see if it is actually as good as I hope.

 

 

 

I worked in Ingham in the mid-late 70's and have seen your weather 1st hand. Now in SW NSW where it is exactly the opposite .... but as you say, great flying weather.

 

 

 

Do you have any issues with bore corrosion in your 3300 during these wet months when you are not flying so much .... or do you special inhibit?

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mlpinaus]

My friend, who flies a j230c out of Murray Bridge has modified the throttle knobs using two billiard balls instead. Looks neat. You can fly behind the 8 ball !

 

His complaint was that the edges of the factory ones were too sharp.

 

My son, who learnt to fly in the original model Jabiru a couple of years back, did a conversion Session last Saturday in a j160. Did not mind the throttle, found

 

the electric flaps to be in the wrong physical place, disliked the sloped double stick and was concerned by the behavior in the flare and the reading of fuel gauges.

 

Marcus

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Speaking of agricultural, how about the crappy springs on the pedals in the pic I have posted of the dash? It has to be the cheapest looking addition I have seen for a long time. I've not seen that on another J series aircraft before. Most unimpressive.

 

Alan, I was wondering if you could run your operating temps past me. Do you know what your oil temp in the cruise is and and what it maxes at?

 

Personally I find the J160 a dream to fly. Lots more room than the J230/J430 and feels like a solid aircraft. I've never experienced any dodgey flare behaviour. One problem with the J160 is directional control when landing and dropping the nose down. Many a people have come close or have actually come un-stuck when steering. It's frustrating as this could be easily solved by replacing the front tyre with a round one rather than that big standard square one that they fit.

 

The new J230 in my pic has some elaborate new guages in the wing root, along with the dash mounted LED ones. This seems to work ok.

 

BC

 

 

[Captain]

Marcus

 

Am surprised at your son's comment about the 160 in the flare. From my time in them I thought they were fine/real good.

 

 

[Yenn]

We have a J230 at Rodds Bay and the owner says it has a very flat glide slope. He told me where he liked to be at 500' on final and I tried the same thing with the Corby, but needed 1500' to get into the strip. What is your experience with final approach speeds and slope?

 

 

[Guest brentc]

What do you mean exactly by a flat glide slope? Do you mean a 'high' glide ratio? as in, you only need to be at 500ft to reach a field 2 miles away, whereas to reach it in the Corby you need 1,500ft?

 

I find my J400 glides extremely well, but I don't have any concrete figures. It glides better with the engine off. The J230 should in theory glide better, but it will be slightly slower which may affect the glide-ratio. I find I need a higher glide speed to reduce the rate of descent versus the documented POH best gliding speed.

 

 

[Alan]

Marcus. What I poorly expressed about the slippery nature of the beast after the flare, was meant to describe how it takes to slow down. Even with full flaps it floats for much longer than expected. So you do not come in over the fence even a little too hot or you will land much longer than you planned. Directional control has never been a problem (at least not an aircraft sourced problem).

 

Brentc. Could you wait until I sit in the A/C and look at my temp guages. I am familiar with the needle positions, but to give you accurate numerical readings from memory would be a risk. Have reached that CRAFT age.

 

My J230 also has guages in the wing root, along with the dash mounted LED ones. I found it a bit alarming at first at how unstable they are. The LED reading seems to be a damped response, while the needles on the guages move quickly. Now I'm used to them, I find they reflect two things; a) the fuel can transfer quite rapidly between wing tanks - do not fly unbalanced (even then when doing circuits it seems easy to end up with much more fuel in one tank than the other) and; b) in anything but very smooth air or stationary on level ground the fuel slops around in the tank and so the guages try to follow. All the wise knowledge indicates to use a stick to verify what you are starting with and calculate fuel burn; use the guages/levels as a rough guide only.

 

The J160 is indeed a much bigger aircraft internally. There is one here at Innisfail that I have sat in only but I am told that is realy nice to fly and is by far the preferred Aircraft of the two for training. I got the 230 because I use it for quite long journeys and it has room in the back for some light items.

 

Geoff. Only time will tell re-bore corrosion. The plane gets started up at least once every ten days. One of our processes at work is to analyse oil samples - a techniique called Ferrography extracts all the wear particles down to fractions of a micron. The first oil sample showed typical running in particles and some minor corrosion traces - typical for a new four stroke. Subsequent oil samples have been largely clear, so while this is not proven technique on a Jabiru, I think it is alright so far.

 

Alan

 

 

[mlpinaus]

This is what I like about this forum. I re-read Alan’s post properly and found the

 

comment regarding options. I have an order in for a j230 with the glass dash thing.

 

It is due in about 5 months. I looked at the spec for the D100 and saw mention of the

 

AOA probe, but did not realize it could be fitted at the factory. The header tank level

 

option I did not know about. What others are there? I think the dipstick idea has a lot

 

going for it .

 

 

regards

 

 

Marcus

 

 

[Captain]

Dynon Options

 

Marcus

 

Here is a comment on Dynon Options which I hope you find useful.

 

If your budget will stretch a tad I suggest that you also have a look at the D180 as it gets rid of a lot of 2" gauges and offers options of a carb temp readout, flap position indication and a few other items that are then neatly on the screen and not spread around the cockpit.

 

They now have a HSI in the Dynon if you interface with your GPS.

 

The Dynon OAT probe also gives a direct reading on the screen of density altitude and corrected airspeed.

 

Perhaps you can also get some of those on the D100.

 

Also have a look at the brighter screen option. Roger's mob bought it for their D100 and speak highly of it.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[mlpinaus]

Thanks Geoff, I'll look at the Dynon web site again...

 

Yes, the brighter display makes sense. Also the D180,

 

thanks.

 

regards

 

Marcus

 

 

[Alan]

BC,

 

The temps you are looking for are I hope in the photo below. This was photo was taken when levelling out following take off climb to 1000ft - having throttled back to 2750rpm.

 

The aircraft had started out at 570Kg and had flown three circuits prior to this climb out and this photo. The airtemp was 27°C. I climb out at 80 knots

 

 

Alan

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Alan, great thanks for that. Oil temp is about right. You wouldn't want much more than that, particularly at 27 deg as at 40 degrees things will start getting a little warm. Your CHT is quite high though given the conditions. There are a few little tricks you can use to lower that regarding the ram-air ducts if required.

 

Let me know if your oil temp gets up near 100 deg as there's a little mod that can be done to bring it down closer to 80.

 

I try to climb out a bit faster than 80 as it gives the engine a chance to rev out more which results in more power and better cooling.

 

Mine is the 400 short wing, however I try to climb out at 100 knots, rather than 80. 100 will actually give me a higher climb rate, although there's a small sacrifice in climb at first whilst the speed builds up.

 

It's interesting to compare peoples numbers.

 

I'll let you know how my carbon prop goes, although if you are LSA you probably can't fit one :-(

 

 

[Guest a hogarth]

My name is Andrew,

 

I have also taken delivery of a 230c in Oct 06.Have altered direct venting to oil cooler,added a skirt to cool cylinders better,removed side pockets -rivets holding press stud don't hold -replaced with solid glass side pockets- addedGarmin 296 gps,radio and transponder also auto pilot

 

 

[Guest a hogarth]

My 230 oil temp reads 100 cruising at 2850 revs on a day of 37deg at 1500 ft and 90deg on a cooler day. Cyl temps climb to the edge of the yellow on climb and cool down to 280 to 300 deg depending on outside air temp . It was climbing to 350 before the skirt was added.

 

By adding the skirt it has produced a negative press behind the oil cooler and with an enclosed vent to the cooler has encouraged more air over the cylinders. There is no sign of overheating on a hot day , but the oil does run ar 100 deg and cyl at 290 deg

 

Can anyone suggest how I can get a lower oil temp with some other mod?

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Hi Andrew,

 

I can certainly assist you with your cooling problem.

 

There's a problem with the new lower cowl on the J230/J430's. They don't go as far back as they used to and don't go back past the firewall. As a result there's no negative pressure down there to suck the air out of the inside of the cowls.

 

The attached pictures are of a J230 and a J430 that we recently modified at Tooradin.

 

The J230 mods are slightly larger, around 3.5 cm+ in depth, whereas the J430 ones are more like 2.5 - 3cm.

 

The results speak for themselves.

 

J230 - down from 100 deg in the cruise to 80.

 

J430 - down from 100 deg in the cruise to 85-88.

 

I can only devise that these results are because of the larger size.

 

Since fitting I have been advised that for an even better result they should have been placed closer to the outside of the aircraft and a little longer, however these results are pretty good as is.

 

As shown we also ducted around the oil cooler with 1.5 - 2mm insertion rubber so that there were no gaps around the cooler for the air to escape.

 

Don't get me wound up too much, however I can't believe that Jabiru have been shipping out aircraft (factory built certified aircraft) that are running temperatures of 100 degrees oil in temps of only 25 - 30 ! Mark my words that if run at these temps for prolonged periods you WILL suffer engine problems, particularly if the engine is new.

 

I know of a particular J2 series engine that has had to go back to the factory because of poor cooling and the owner is NOT impressed! Damage was present on valves, valve guides, rocker bushes and a bucket-load of metal right through the engine.

 

If you need more detailed, pick please let me know, however you should be able to perform this mod easily enough from my pics. I guarantee a good result! (I'm not sure of the impact on cruise, probably none).

 

Pic - J230 Oil Ducting

 

 

J230 fins.

 

 

J430 fins.

 

 

J230 fins side-on. Note that you can see by the gap on the outside that something doesn't match up. This is because the mould is cut differently. This started happening when they changed to the new cowl type.

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Also Andrew, how did you go about adding auto-pilot and a radio to your certified aircraft? I assume it's LSA?

 

 

[Guest a hogarth]

Thank you Brentc, I've been away and am thrilled to get your email. Our mechanic Wayne Johns and Mike Chapman have filled in whith fibre glass and rubber to nearly seal the oil cooler so 99% of the air has to go through the cooler. They also made a small akirt like yours . We now run at 90deg.and the cyl temp is slightly down. It might pay to copy your skirt and increase the size of ours.

 

My 230c is factory built with 76hrs and 5mths old.

 

Today I had the mechanic install bigger skirts. We got better results for cyl & oil temps.

 

On cruise at 2850 rev oil 85 deg & cyl 250 to 285 deg 21 deg outside temp .

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest brentc]

It is with much sadness that I report that the the aircraft appearing at the beginning of this thread was written off yesterday

 

Luckily the pilot and passenger walked away unharmed :)

 

It's such a shame that something so good that you've worked so hard for can be taken away from you so quickly in the blink of an eye.

 

Out of respect for the owner I won't post any accident details other than to say that it hit the ground very hard.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Good news Andrew about your temps. Now you're looking more like achieving a 1,000 top end overhaul life. Where you were headed was more like 500!

 

 

[Guest a hogarth]

I am very sorry to hear about your beautiful well sorted out aircraft.I spoke to Michael in the engine dept. at Jabiru today and told him about my 230's peformance. He wanted me to send a pic, so I showed him yours. We read your bad news.He said he knew you. If you ever want ,email me your ph no. and I'll have a chat. My email is [email protected]

 

Cheers Andrew

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'd better clarify that the aircraft this discussion is about is / was not mine.

 

 

[Guest imap8ntr]

I have a J-250 in the US. (Please excuse F temps.) Wth 50F OAT I get good oil temp of about 160F but my hottest cylinder CHT reaches 347F upon climbout at 91Kts and at cruise reaches 338F. My EGT's have climbed recently about 60F to 1375F climbout and 1435F in cruise. Some feel that the reason for the increase in EGT's is because of the low OAT down to 48F while using an altitude compensating carburetor. I am a bit perplexed because I would have thought that my CHT's should be much lower in this low air temp.

 

I am concerned about these higher than expected CHT's with an increase in EGT's. The engine has only 120hrs on it and has always run at the high end of the CHT's.

 

Any comments appreciated.

 

Ivan, USA