where to

[storchy neil]

on the 9 9 07 i got tangled up in power lines stupid me

 

stupid me got a lame who is a level 3 to repair plane

 

stupid me done all the rite things

 

stupid me tried to fly plane but it was not and did not fly correctly

 

stupid complained to casa about the lame they did not wont to know about it

 

stupid me complained to canbera civel mater take him to court

 

stupid me complained to insurance company civil mater take the repairer to court

 

stupid me got solictor going broke fast

 

stupid me wants to know who in the hell cares about the repair off our planes

 

stupid me wants to know as my plane was used as a training plane beining 24 registered would you be at ease with your son daughter mother father flying a not air worthy plane the repairer sighned it out

 

next time you check the plane out properly

 

stupid me thought pack aircraft on trailer and take to temora natfly and show off repairers handy work no can do opened up new can off worms neil

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

CASA don't you think they are worth the money we pay and threats they make us fly under? Keep complaining and work your way up the chain. RAAus about the level 3 what was their response?

 

 

[P4D]

Accountability

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

An interesting, if completely frustrating, situation.

 

You didn't say whether the LAME issued a "Certificate of Airworthiness" or just a "Maintenance Release"?

 

I found this CASA manual on CoAs, but have only skimmed a portion of it.

 

The latter, as I understand it, only certifies that the work requested by the aircraft owner was completed and lists any other maintenance items that would be required within the period of the maintenance release period. Looking at the relevant CAAP, it appears that if the previous maintenance release had been endorsed with a non-airworthiness status due to certain damage, then that would have to be addressed in the new maintenance release with a statement by a person authorised to do so (implies a separate qualification to the LAME) that the repairs were "within airworthiness limitations".

 

When I bought my aircraft, second hand, it had the mandatory transfer inspection that is supposed to identify anything that needs doing, is deteriorating more than expected or to a level that requires or would soon require remedial work (the standard RAA form). The report form had, as part of the pre-printed text, that it was definitely not certifying to the airworthiness of the aircraft. The inspection and report was conducted by a LAME. As owner, I made my own decision on airworthiness based on this, having flown it several times, and knowing the prior owner and his approach to maintenance, plus my own inspection (not that I claim to have any expert knowledge).

 

From my inexpert perspective, the aircraft owner is ultimately responsible, but may engage various categories of licensed or delegated authority holders to perform repairs, maintenance and certifications. It looks like a "CoA" delegation is independent of a LAME, albeit that some people may hold both authorities.

 

I doubt this will be of any assistance, but it would be interesting for many other readers to understand the processes and pitfalls.

 

 

[storchy neil]

ossie raa response writen your fault verble from aboard member very encourageing will leave that alone at the minute

 

the responce from casa is the most interesting at wagga i was ramp checked had every thing to fly legal maps currant flight manual currant checked out ok

 

now i wanted to know what car number that carriage off flight manuals came under in the G A feild three people at casa told me that as a ultralight pilot i did not need too carry the flight manual for the aircraft

 

on cracking the ****s and lying to cassa i was told neil

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Get a quote for repairs and take the original repairer to the Small Claims Court or the equivalent. Assuming you are a consumer and not a business, no lawyer required as your quote from repairer should cover damages.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...three people at casa told me that as a ultralight pilot i did not need too carry the flight manual for the aircraft ...

 

 

• Under CAO 95.32 my aircraft can be registered with RAA and flown by an RAA Pilot Certificate Holder.
   
   
  
• Under RAA Pilot Certificate, you must obey the Ops Manual.
   
   
  
• Ops manual says you must obey the Pilots Manual from the aircraft manufacturer.
   
   
  
• My aircraft's Pilot manual says it must be carried in the aircraft.
   
   
  
• CASA says electronically on my SmartPhone is OK.
   
   
  

 

 

As with all the leg. there may be other combinations that arrive at the same answer.

 

 

[Powerin]

• Under CAO 95.32 my aircraft can be registered with RAA and flown by an RAA Pilot Certificate Holder.
   
   
  
• Under RAA Pilot Certificate, you must obey the Ops Manual.
   
   
  
• Ops manual says you must obey the Pilots Manual from the aircraft manufacturer.
   
   
  
• My aircraft's Pilot manual says it must be carried in the aircraft.
   
   
  
• CASA says electronically on my SmartPhone is OK.
   
   
  

 

 

 

As with all the leg. there may be other combinations that arrive at the same answer.

CAO 95.32 lists our exemptions from CARs. And one of the things it does not exempt us from is carrying a POH?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

ask the CASA dude to put it in writing to clarify what his interpretaion of 'not needing to carry....' watch him make choking noises and pretend he left his pen and paper in the car. tell him when ramp check starts that the vid camera is going to be running continuously. watch the attitude change. lean a little closer to him, lift your lapel and ask him to speak a little clearer for the mike. They will say this and that but it is just 'hearsay' in court get it in writing but cover your butt and carry it. electronic storage devices. what was that about using them in a cockpit i read recently?

 

Do not trust anything a casa ramp dude says period.`

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

electronic storage devices. what was that about using them in a cockpit i read recently?

Perhaps that the data has to be stored on the device and not dependent on network availability to use it.

I cannot see myself consulting the POH while in the air, either in electronic or paper form.

 

Powerin; Thanks for the more direct requirement.

 

 

[storchy neil]

fly stupid me is registered as a business neil

 

 

[storchy neil]

davidh10 how many schools have training air craft that do not have a copy of flight manual for the students to read for their particualar aircraft when i was a student i did not have avaible to a copy of flight manual

 

i took it as what the in structor told me as right

 

when my air craft was going to a certain schoolas a training aircraft the person doing the talking for the school asked me if i could get copies of flight manual so as students could read it as the origenal manual had to be in the air craft on all flights

 

to me the reading of flight manual begins after the first tif but thats stupid me talking catch up soon neil

 

 

[storchy neil]

ozzie ramp ckeck guys were spot on got a lot of good info from them pencil pushing office chair warmers were the problem neil

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

davidh10 how many schools have training air craft that do not have a copy of flight manual for the students to read for their particualar aircraft when i was a student i did not have avaible to a copy of flight manuali took it as what the in structor told me as right

when my air craft was going to a certain schoolas a training aircraft the person doing the talking for the school asked me if i could get copies of flight manual so as students could read it as the origenal manual had to be in the air craft on all flights

 

to me the reading of flight manual begins after the first tif but thats stupid me talking catch up soon neil

Good point Neil.

 

I had noticed that the FTF I learned at had a pilot manual stowed on-board, although I only noticed it one day when the instructor was re-stowing some other material.

 

Being the sort of person that I am, and spending a lot of time on the Internet, I independently sourced manuals by downloading them from the manufacturer's web site after only a couple of lessons and read them cover to cover. Now that I own my own aircraft, I carry them only electronically. The paper copies only come out when I'm performing maintenance. Held in two ring-back binders (one for Pilot Operating Manual, the other for Maintenance, Engine and radio manuals), they are too bulky to carry. Mind you I have both the original manuals and a current edition, which adds to the bulk.

 

The manuals don't really add anything to what I was taught and also fall far short of what I was taught in relation to flying. They relate more to dismantling the aircraft for transport and re-setup for flying as well as listing pre-flight checks. As mine is hangared, the only times some of this happens is during 100 hourly maintenance. On the other hand, my daily checks also include quite a few items that are listed in the manual to be checked as part of 100 hourly.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

OK, lets go back to the beginning here folks !!

 

I am assuming Neil, that the aircraft in question is RAA registered, and not VH at the time of the incident ?...

 

You state that you engaged a Lame, RAA Level 3, to repair what I assume was significent damage.

 

First of all, what you needed was a Level 2, with knowledge and experience on your particular aircraft type. This is particulary important with the Gazzelle, as it has CASA ADs, and other significent Mandatory service bulletins that have to be complied with. The CASA AD relates to the wing attach point carry-thru back-up tube, which must be fitted, and notification that it has been done must be on file with CASA via RAAus.

 

A Level 3 is only a Regional Technical Co-ordinator, and may or may not have maintenance skills at all, and may not be anywhere near the Level 2 skill requirements. The fact that this gentleman is a LAME, also does not mean he is particulary capable, or knowledgable when it comes to repairing a Gazelle. If he has no prior experience with a Gazelle, or does not have access to the technical data to carry out the repair job, then simply he is not the man for the job.

 

I know Level 3s and Level 4s for that matter who know very little about ULs in general, and often seek out Level 2s like myseft for specific knowledge on a particular model, or engine type.

 

Your task it would seem, was to find the right individual, with the right knowledge and experience to repair your particular aircraft.

 

The fact that the aircraft was engaged in the training role, mandates that that persom must be an unlimited Level 2 with knowledge of the type.This is all laid out clearly in your RAA ops manual....

 

The average CASA man on the street , and for that matter the ones in Canberra would have no idea about our RAA maintenance requirements, even if they cared. The man you really should have spoken to would have been our RAAus Tech manager .............................................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[storchy neil]

maj millard raa registered yes

 

asumeing on my part was my big downfall that a lame level 3 would have the knowldge to check out fire wall after prop strike engine mount frame after prop strike broken olio from power wires right hand wing tip witch was badley damaged cracking the leading edge of wing after it played bulldozer explained to insurance assessor and repairer that the plane had stood up on the nose the windscreen also broken it is fly synthesis storch

 

some time ago i think that some wrote on a foram that some lame should not be raa rated

 

apparantly by what i am hearing some people should speek up and it is not only raa but is happing in ga aircraft to pencil pushing repairers are going to let us down i do reliese that that i may burn some bridges so be it if i can save some one else from the pain i am going through from my own stupidity neil

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

This is a prime example of what i have been talking about for some time now. The RAAus must set up a school where people can go and be taught how to correctly maintain and repair aircraft. The current system just passes on the blind leading the blind system. Time to get out of Canberra and into facilities with trained instructors that can get every one up to a professional level. This should never happen now. The aircraft that are out there now require more than a backyard mechanic attitude.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Ozzie,

 

I can not agree with you more, there are some horrific backyard "mechanics" out there.

 

One issue i see is the difficulties getting the recognition of qualifications, I know I tried. I joined the Navy and became an aircraft mechanic, in 1977 I got my LAME's. Unfortunately we got so many endorsements we priced ourselves out of civilian employment. I have worked on every aircraft that the Navy had at that time except the Sykhawk, from J5 Austers to Sea kings and everything in between. I was responsible for 8 aircraft at any one time. I sent a certified copy of my LAME certificate, my degree in chemical engineering(explosives) and a letter from my OIC detailing my work on aircraft and sub/supersonic missiles but was told i needed to supply more detailed information on each and every aircraft/system. Now come on that would have cost at least two trees worth of paper!

 

A system that complicated does not lend itself well to new applications, the other issue is there is no competentcy based training/checking in place - yet?

 

Bob.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Neil, you are far from stupid - just a victim of the "system" & for that we are all stupid

hey guys and girls just finished reading report:roflmao: commisioneed by a certain insurance company into my plane as to the shoddy workmanship by a certain lame plus l2:thumb_down::thumb_down:

 

if the situation i am in was not so bloody serious the wording of the document is bloody laughable

 

i cannot beleive what i have receive from a so called expert :ranting:in the avaition

 

i who have made stupid mistakes in life

 

neil