Your preferred crosswind landing technique?

[Powerin]

I'm so sorry... I didn't know and didn't make the connection

kaz

Not at all Kaz....just saw HEON's post (from months ago) above yours and was reminded of the many contributions he made to the forum. When one of our esteemed members departs I think it's appropriate to reflect on and celebrate their life and how they helped us all!

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Protect the into wind wing(wing down) and save yourself the twinkle toes/hands juggle on flare. You won't know if you judged it all right until it starts to be too late - too many a/c are getting bent on landing as it is, low wings are a two way thing- each to their own. Wing down counters the gust components as well.If you start running out of rudder to keep her straight then you've found the cross wind limit of the aircraft.

 

Trikes, I cheat and land a little cross runway if it's really strong- then go home!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Nev said: That's the way it was done when everyone did 3 pointers.

 

True, Nev, but this one was a wheeler - which has its particular advantages in x-winds - and he landed on one main which tends to iron out the bounce for which Austers are somewhat renowned.

 

I'm still nervous in strong x-winds in the Auster and I tend to angle across the strip if there's room to lessen the angle. I haven't ground-looped it but have come awfully close!

 

I used to do approaches like the one in the video many years ago when driving Blaniks, but I was younger and sharper then

 

kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

If you three point, it won't bounce, but if the wind is gusty I don't three point. The Auster has reputation for bouncing and they have been known to crash ontake-off because of the bounce starting and getting worse progressively. I've had this happen a few times on an undulating field. You either pull it into the air and fly a few feet up in ground effect till your speed is safe to climb out, or you abort the take-off. Those undamped bungee cords are the cause.

 

When I converted to the Auster, it was from the DHC-1 and DH82 and the conversion was no big deal, but today most people would do it from a C-172 or Arrow or such and would find the tendency to ground loop a bit challenging. It's really no worse than a lot of other aircraft, except for the poor heel brakes and the bounce.. I actually find the C-180,185 more challenging, if I'm not current.

 

As far as the low crosswind limitations go,, ultimately the rudder will determine what can be handled. If the crosswind is steady but close to or on the limit, and some of it is a headwind I would always land with the tailwheel on the ground and the in to wind wing very low. This gives you a really low speed touchdown and if the plane does groundloop, it won't be going very fast .Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

Thanks for that video, kaz. Hans is an old hand at it - last time I saw him he was still laughing at the Auster experiences in the good old days. I could never land Austers as nicely as that back then and I haven't tried one since.

 

Mine is in a light xwind but feel free to critique it.

 

 

 

[J170 Owner]

The windsock was flapping out horizontal and at 90 degrees to the runway during this landing. At 500 feet AGL I had about 45 degrees of drift which reduced to about 30 degrees crossing the fence. The video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F61BnPoix6c As soon as I straightened up the plane drifted to the right. Lots of rudder work involved!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Well that might help with the wind problem, thanks for the tip!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Thanks for that video, kaz. Hans is an old hand at it - last time I saw him he was still laughing at the Auster experiences in the good old days. I could never land Austers as nicely as that back then and I haven't tried one since.Mine is in a light xwind but feel free to critique it.

 

Hi DJP

 

It's a great display, isn't it... even if a bit humbling. The Auster is an aeroplane in which you can do it right 90% of the time but golly it can catch you out if you relax. There are some, however, who just seem to have the knack.

 

I cajoled Dick Gower into taking it for a run some months ago and he gave it a bit of a wringing out in upper air work before coming back and doing an absolute greaser on the grass. As he was getting out he told me he hadn't had so much fun since he last flew one about 20 years earlier. It was great seeing him back in the Chippie on the weekend.

 

Your effort looks pretty damned good to me and I won't ever complain about the poor forward vis in the Auster on late final again. Everything I've heard about the Pitts suggests it's a busy little bird on the ground.

 

Are you going to Temora for the AAAA flyin in October?

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

kaz, you didn't mention that the Temora event is an Auster Rally - no, I will be there a few weeks later for the aerobatic contest.

 

Interesting that the "new" guy I share an office with used to fly those Austers back then too - he was one of the instructors. We agreed that the J-2 was the nicest.

 

 

[djpacro]

This is it http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austmz/VH-PUL.html

 

 

[Guernsey]

Wow this forum certainly brings back memories. I learn't to fly in a J1N Auster on the Island of Guernsey which had only one runway so most of our landings had some cross

 

wind component. We used to crab, kick straight and lower wing into wind just before touch down landing on two wheels (one main plus tail wheel) we used to hold the wing down with aileron even after the third wheel settled to avoid the into wind wing being picked up again with the cross wind. In strong gusty conditions we would do a wheel on landing (one main wheel only) and keep the tail up for better rudder control. Never managed to ground loop one but many times taxying experienced drum brake fade and had to do a 360 Taxi ground loop and start again. The Control Tower became quite used to it and probably thought it was part of our ground training.

 

Alan Marriette.

 

 

[djpacro]

Had lunch with Hans today and he clearly remembered that day in the Auster. Started off fairly calm and progressively got worse as the day went on. Landings were easy compared to the take-offs with a glider in tow.

 

 

[kaz3g]

kaz, you didn't mention that the Temora event is an Auster Rally - no, I will be there a few weeks later for the aerobatic contest.Interesting that the "new" guy I share an office with used to fly those Austers back then too - he was one of the instructors. We agreed that the J-2 was the nicest.

Hey DJP

 

The last few Auster rallys have been biger than Ben Hur... really becoming a second antiquer's meet each year with lots of others coming along as well.

 

I did my first few Auster hours in a J3 with a Gipsy in it but the engine rotates the wrong way! Most Austers we see today are rebuilds of the military AOP -0 as was mine.

 

The J2 still had the small rudder with a mass balance on top. It also had less glass. This one has a baby Lycoming 0-235 in it which was very common as these engines were supplied by the Yanks under lend lease before they came into the war. You also see them with Curtiss engines of varying sizes as well.

 

Your friend can't possibly compare his J2 with this

 

http://www.recreationalpilots.com.au/gallery/details.php?image_id=3504&mode=search&sessionid=fc89a4df242241b606e13448b764d5dd

 

Lots of others here, too

 

http://www.recreationalpilots.com.au/gallery/search.php?search_keywords=Auster&sessionid=fc89a4df242241b606e13448b764d5dd

 

What are you taking to Temora for the comps?

 

kaz

 

http://www.austerclub.org/model_j2_j3_j4/j_2_arrow.htm

 

 

[kaz3g]

kaz, you didn't mention that the Temora event is an Auster Rally - no, I will be there a few weeks later for the aerobatic contest.Interesting that the "new" guy I share an office with used to fly those Austers back then too - he was one of the instructors. We agreed that the J-2 was the nicest.

Hey DJP

 

The last few Auster rallys have been biger than Ben Hur... really becoming a second antiquer's meet each year with lots of others coming along as well.

 

I did my first few Auster hours in a J3 with a Gipsy in it but the engine rotates the wrong way! Most Austers we see today are rebuilds of the military AOP -0 as was mine.

 

The J2 still had the small rudder with a mass balance on top. It also had less glass. This one has a baby Lycoming 0-235 in it which was very common as these engines were supplied by the Yanks under lend lease before they came into the war. You also see them with Curtiss engines of varying sizes as well.

 

Your friend can't possibly compare his J2 with this

 

http://www.recreationalpilots.com.au/gallery/details.php?image_id=3504&mode=search&sessionid=fc89a4df242241b606e13448b764d5dd

 

Lots of others here, too

 

http://www.recreationalpilots.com.au/gallery/search.php?search_keywords=Auster&sessionid=fc89a4df242241b606e13448b764d5dd

 

What are you taking to Temora for the comps?

 

kaz

 

http://www.austerclub.org/model_j2_j3_j4/j_2_arrow.htm

 

 

[kaz3g]

Had lunch with Hans today and he clearly remembered that day in the Auster. Started off fairly calm and pregressivley got worse as the day went on. Landings were easy compared to the take-offs with a glider in tow.

Did you know old Bill Sherwell and his Chippie?

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

Did you know old Bill Sherwell and his Chippie?kaz

With Tim and Dick at Toc recently discussing Chipmunk pilots of earlier days, not sure if his name came up.To stay somewhat on the topic of this thread: interesting article by David Cooke in the latest issue of Australian Pilot magazine "Waiting for a Chipmunk". David's mates were allocated Chipmunks to learn to fly in but he had the misfortune (50 years later he sees that he was the lucky one) to go in a Tiger Moth so had to wait 4 days for the wind to die down before he had his first flight. Frustrating with the Tiger at Moorabbin - I never launch if the xwind is any more than 10 kts.

 

... The last few Auster rallys have been biger than Ben Hur.......What are you taking to Temora for the comps?

The Pitts in my avatar should be there. Some-one will take the Super Decathlon from Lilydale. Not sure if my Decathlon will be there or not. Again, to retain a semblance of keeping on topic - the hotshot aerobatic pilots at the contest will depart on runway 36 and land on 36 (maybe 18) regardless of wind because they are hotshot aerobatic pilots and will use the runway closest to the aero club.

[kaz3g]

With Tim and Dick at Toc recently discussing Chipmunk pilots of earlier days, not sure if his name came up.

Sadly, Bill is no longer with us. He did one slow roll on take-off too many.

 

Frustrating with the Tiger at Moorabbin - I never launch if the xwind is any more than 10 kts.

 

The Tiger and the unmodified Auster both have max x-wind components of 7 knots. The Tiger is much heavier on the controls and, although its wingspan is significantly less than the Auster's 36 feet, in early versions the lower wing was awfully close to the ground and could easily touch it in a ground loop. That led to later Tigers being redesigned with swept back wings which gave a little more clearance (includes all Australian built Tigers).

 

The hotshot aerobatic pilots at the contest will depart on runway 36 and land on 36 (maybe 18) regardless of wind because they are hotshot aerobatic pilots and will use the runway closest to the aero club.

 

That ought sort the "redhot" from the just "tad better than warm", I should think. I'll try desperately to get the time off to come up and watch!

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

Yes, we did discuss http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1988/aair/aair198801407.aspx

 

Very sad but not unexpected apparently.

 

Nothing about a xwind limit or recommended max xwind limit for Tigers unless an individual owner or operator has imposed it.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Yes, we did discusshttp://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1988/aair/aair198801407.aspx

Very sad but not unexpected apparently.

That's the one. I'll tell you more if I see you at Temora.

 

Nothing about a xwind limit or recommended max xwind limit for Tigers unless an individual owner or operator has imposed it.

 

I am relying on Ray Vuillermin's knowledge on this one. A retired Singapore Airlines captain and training pilot, Ray learned to fly in Tigers at 16 years and starred in Tale of a Tiger in the 1980's. He also owns a Chippie and lives at Watts Bridge these days. He had an article published in R&T a while back specifically on cross wind landings and used the Tiger and Auster as comparisons.

 

Aircraft this old did not have an authorised Flight Manual and my Auster is exempt from carrying one as a consequence of this. I expect the Tiger is the same. Nevertheless, a lot of people have done a lot of work in them in the military and it seems reasonable to believe that this is where the figures come from.

 

I guess a demonstrated max xwc is just that -- demonstrated -- not set in stone. It's a fair maximum for your average jockey.

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

Maybe. Last time I saw Ray was a few years ago when we found ourselves sitting next to each other on a bus in the USA - small world. Many years ago he once did a flight review for me in a single seat airplane.

 

Bill Bennett, long time instructor in Tigers also told me 12 kts which proved to be the right number for me. Can't remember what I was told when I did my Tiger check-out in the UK a life-time ago - nought on the subject in the handling notes I was given.

 

7 kt xwind limit at Moorabbin wouldn't give many days available to fly. Be interesting to hear from the Tiger guys at Redcliffe on this subject.

 

 

[kaz3g]

...Bill Bennett, long time instructor in Tigers also told me 12 kts which proved to be the right number for me. Can't remember what I was told when I did my Tiger check-out in the UK a life-time ago - nought on the subject in the handling notes I was given.7 kt xwind limit at Moorabbin wouldn't give many days available to fly. Be interesting to hear from the Tiger guys at Redcliffe on this subject.

It seems the absence of a demonstrated maximum cross wind for Tigers goes back to the fact they were built in those wonderful days pre-war when they had all-over airfields on which to play. A "demonstrated" is only that, of course, and more skilled pilots regularly set down in conditions stronger than the book.

 

When I was younger and sharper I could slide a Blanik down at what seemed close to a right angle to the strip in a really strong cross wind. But I was instructing then and probably doing 30 or more landings each week. Now I look at the windsock and if its pointing far away from where I want to depart and arrive, I tend to leave the J5 in its hangar. I also have the positions of those 2 private east-west strips north of my home north-south airfield in my GPS in case I get caught out badly!

 

I've emailed both antique airways and Ray to ask the question.

 

kaz

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

My CFI (he survived 20yrs in New Guinea so I'll listen to him) teaches the wing-down approach. He says that it gives you more time to be set up and doesn't rely on being able to time the kick straight and the flare at the same time.

 

IMO landing is all about the setup. Crabbing is fine on approach, but giving yourself plenty of time to setup the side slip then only having to time the flare seems to be the way to go for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree 100% with pookimon. and his NG instructor. Light, low wing loaded, draggy planes when kicked straightdon't continue for long down the middle of the strip at flare before being blown by the wind. In a strong X-wind you have to keep the wing well down and even taxi/roll on one wheel initially.

 

In any X-wind situation AVOID at all costs getting the wind under the upwind wing. ( Upwind wing higher).. This tends to happen during the kicking straight manoeuver due to the further effect of the yaw (rudder) as well as the effect of the wind.

 

Kicking a plane straight from a crabbed approach is more applicable to a heavy transport which has more inertia/speed and cannot tolerate much bank at flare because of the likelihood of engine pods or flap trailing edges contacting the runway. The permissible X-wind component is usually around 35 Knots with these aircraft. You will see a lot of them land with crab still on, but this is a bit hard on the gear. Nev

 

 

[Allegro2000]

All,

 

I let my aircraft tell me what it wants to do. I prefer cross controls but under some conditions crabbing in will work fine. My aircraft tells me how it feels in the particular wind conditions and I fly accordingly.

 

Regards

 

Allegro 2000

 

 

[Guernsey]

My aircraft has never told me what it wants to do but has frequently asked me what the hell did I bring it up here for in these wind conditions.

 

Alan Marriette.