35,000ft close encounter.

[Teckair]

Last Thursday my wife and I flew from Brisbane to Adelaide with Virgin Blue airlines. About an hour out of Adelaide while cruising at, my guess 35,000ft, my wife and the passenger in front of her observed a Qantas jet fly past on our port side at our height in the opposite direction to what we were traveling. They both thought it was very close and when described to me it sounded like it was most likely not more than 500 metres away. This set me wondering was this intentional? how did it happen? 500 metres is not much room for error at that sort of closing speed of 900 kts or more. Being RAAus and therefore VFR I am unsure of the way things should be in that situation but it does not sound right to me, maybe we have someone on the forum who can explain it further?

 

Regards Richard.

 

 

[Exadios]

Last Thursday my wife and I flew from Brisbane to Adelaide with Virgin Blue airlines. About an hour out of Adelaide while cruising at, my guess 35,000ft, my wife and the passenger in front of her observed a Qantas jet fly past on our port side at our height in the opposite direction to what we were traveling. They both thought it was very close and when described to me it sounded like it was most likely not more than 500 metres away. This set me wondering was this intentional? how did it happen? 500 metres is not much room for error at that sort of closing speed of 900 kts or more. Being RAAus and therefore VFR I am unsure of the way things should be in that situation but it does not sound right to me, maybe we have someone on the forum who can explain it further?Regards Richard.

500 meters is too close and if they where flying in the opposite heading they should not have been on the same flight level.

 

 

[facthunter]

Don't know really. IF you saw it it wasn't close. At those closing speeds (Faster than a bullet), you rarely see it. You should have had vertical separation. (1,000 feet?). Today, with everybody navigating very accurately IF you are at the same level you end up staring at each other briefly before you are despatched to eternity. If anything had been wrong then TCAS would have been activated, surely Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

Don't know really. IF you saw it it wasn't close. At those closing speeds (Faster than a bullet), you rarely see it. You should have had vertical separation. (1,000 feet?). Today, with everybody navigating very accurately IF you are at the same level you end up staring at each other briefly before you are despatched to eternity. If anything had been wrong then TCAS would have been activated, surely Nev

I did not see it but my wife did and the passenger in front of her also, there was no time to draw my attention to it, it was gone in a split second. The distance was estimated by the amount of window space it briefly occupied.

 

 

[Yenn]

Write a letter explaining what was seen and when. Send it to Airservices. There are better ways to advise the authorities of encounters like this, but I would have to look through all the paper warfare nd I am sure a letter to Airservices would work. This scenario happened many years ago and it was only a remark from a passenger that woke someone up to looking into it and it was a near miss, due from memory to an amended flight plan and the clearance was "as filed". Problem was the pilot used one plan and the controller another.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Well a miss is as good as a mile as they say! Was on a commercial flight which landed at San Francisco airport once simultaneously & exactly in line with with another aircraft on the parallel runway, Some of the passengers were worried but to me it seemed an efficient use of the facility. I checked on google maps & the centre lines are about 230m apart, seemed much closer watching it.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

I've watched arrivals at Hartsfield-Jackson (Atlanta) where I could see 12 planes on final to parallel runways - 6 pairs using L and R with minimum separation.

 

That's how it can be done - and is every day there. I think it's the third busiest behind LAX and ORD (O'Hare Chicago).

 

I did them all in one day once.

 

 

[Tomo]

Was on a commercial flight which landed at San Francisco airport once simultaneously & exactly in line with with another aircraft on the parallel runway,

Was flying circuits at Archerfield the other day, I was using 10R and another aircraft was on 10L - parallel runways obviously. Thought it kinda cool when on final I was exactly abeam another Cessna on the other runway, and we pretty much landed simultaneously. Was quite a distance, but my first experience of having something like that happen, I thought it cool! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Exadios]

Well a miss is as good as a mile as they say! Was on a commercial flight which landed at San Francisco airport once simultaneously & exactly in line with with another aircraft on the parallel runway, Some of the passengers were worried but to me it seemed an efficient use of the facility. I checked on google maps & the centre lines are about 230m apart, seemed much closer watching it.

But they were both traveling the same way and were aware of each other.

 

This situation should have been avoided by use of ADS-B but clearly was not.

 

 

[Ryanm]

Hi Richard.

 

There is nothing unusual about traffic passing within 500m vertically in the cruise. Both aircraft would have been in class A airspace and operating to RVSM standards which only requires 1000ft (300m) vertical separation.

 

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf (paragraph 38)

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Indeed, CASA advice to people flying GPS along published routes to apply a horizontal offset to the right to prevent the possibility of a GPS guided head on collision if vertical separation is absent.

 

 

[Exadios]

Hi Richard. There is nothing unusual about traffic passing within 500m vertically in the cruise. Both aircraft would have been in class A airspace and operating to RVSM standards which only requires 1000ft (300m) vertical separation.

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf (paragraph 38)

If the slant range is 500 meters and the vertical separation is 300 meters then the observed angle from the horizontal is:

 

Theta = +-ARCSIN(300 / 500) = +-37 degrees

 

That would not be consistant with "at out height". If fact it is unlikely that a plane at nearly 40 degree from the horizontal could be seen from a cabin window.

 

 

[Teckair]

It mostly depends on the angle that the two people saw it at, the size of the other plane, how far they were from the window also plays a part... i highly doubt the pilots wouldntve known they were close... not only as others have said 1000ft seperation for class A, if traffic controllers didnt let them know, than TCAS sure would... thats all im gonna say...

The two people who saw the aircraft were seated next to the window on the port side, the same side as the aircraft which was observed. They were both very surprised at how close it was certainly close enough to tell it was Qantas. There was no vertical separation certainly not 1000ft we were pretty much on the same level. My wife does not think the observed aircraft was climbing or descending. I can't imagine the pilots would have known each others location and was amazed we were on the same level going in opposite directions that close. I think I will take Yenn's advise and write a letter to Airsevices.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think I have to make the point again that to see the plane it must have been further away than 500M. The closing speed is over 900 knots. )Faster than a pistol bullet) It is pretty hard to judge distance at altitude as you have little reference. I have been in this position many times and tried to report passing opposite directon traffic, ( when requested) as it may delay a descent clearance. You rarely see it. Also TCAS would respond IF there was a threat surely. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

I think I have to make the point again that to see the plane it must have been further away than 500M. The closing speed is over 900 knots. )Faster than a pistol bullet) It is pretty hard to judge distance at altitude as you have little reference. I have been in this position many times and tried to report passing opposite directon traffic, ( when requested) as it may delay a descent clearance. You rarely see it. Also TCAS would respond IF there was a threat surely. Nev

I am open to suggestion on the 500M issue that is only an estimate based on what I was told. Even if it was double that distance I would have thought there still are some issues. Maybe it is all to much trouble to get too concerned about, after all the safety record here is pretty good.

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you didn't have the vertical separation required you would need to be MANY miles away to be legal. You would have to be on another route.

 

I can recall instances where aircraft were assigned to the same level over the years but it is an absolute major BOO BOO.. The system is supposed to be designed to prevent that.

 

It's OK to be concerned about it Teckair. You may be right. I am only trying to point out possibilities..Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I wonder if Radar coverage was available at the location you talk about. ADL to BNE is a 2:15 flight so presumably you were about 1/2 way which puts you between moree and cobar. Not sure if Radar or ADSB would cover that part of the continent yet. On the otherhand up near 40kft line of site is a long way.....

 

If its not available then separation I pressume can only be definately achieved through vertical seperation assuming a similar ERCH route?

 

Any current CPL's that will be much more in the know than me care to comment?

 

(Edit: actually can determine that myself using www.flightradar24.com every aircraft identified that I then click on provides the radar station tracking it in the dialogue box to the left side of the screen....Thats assuming its in any way definative)

 

(Edit 2: using the website I can see that at cruising altitude coverage out that way is from Tamworth Radar and cuts out to the east of bourke so I suspect that there is a hole in coverage. Tracking a VB Emb190 tracking BNE to ADL now to see what happens)

 

Andy

 

 

[Teckair]

I wonder if Radar coverage was available at the location you talk about. ADL to BNE is a 2:15 flight so presumably you were about 1/2 way which puts you between moree and cobar. Not sure if Radar or ADSB would cover that part of the continent yet. On the otherhand up near 40kft line of site is a long way.....If its not available then separation I pressume can only be definately achieved through vertical seperation assuming a similar ERCH route?

 

Any current CPL's that will be much more in the know than me care to comment?

 

(Edit: actually can determine that myself using www.flightradar24.com every aircraft identified that I then click on provides the radar station tracking it in the dialogue box to the left side of the screen....Thats assuming its in any way definative)

 

(Edit 2: using the website I can see that at cruising altitude coverage out that way is from Tamworth Radar and cuts out to the east of bourke so I suspect that there is a hole in coverage. Tracking a VB Emb190 tracking BNE to ADL now to see what happens)

 

Andy

I am not sure of the exact location we were at but I think we were more than half way maybe two thirds towards Adelaide.

 

 

[Exadios]

I wonder if Radar coverage was available at the location you talk about. ADL to BNE is a 2:15 flight so presumably you were about 1/2 way which puts you between moree and cobar. Not sure if Radar or ADSB would cover that part of the continent yet. On the otherhand up near 40kft line of site is a long way.....If its not available then separation I pressume can only be definately achieved through vertical seperation assuming a similar ERCH route?

 

Any current CPL's that will be much more in the know than me care to comment?

 

(Edit: actually can determine that myself using www.flightradar24.com every aircraft identified that I then click on provides the radar station tracking it in the dialogue box to the left side of the screen....Thats assuming its in any way definative)

 

(Edit 2: using the website I can see that at cruising altitude coverage out that way is from Tamworth Radar and cuts out to the east of bourke so I suspect that there is a hole in coverage. Tracking a VB Emb190 tracking BNE to ADL now to see what happens)

 

Andy

A coverage map is avaliable on page 1 of this document. But, in addition to ground coverage, most airlines have Mode S which supports aircraft to aircraft communication.

 

 

[winsor68]

Watching the videos should clear it up for the missus and save you a lot of mucking around.