pudestcon Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 Thanks everyone, turboplanner, thanks for the contact details, I will give him a call today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deskpilot Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Oh dear, that's gunna be dear.(to fix) At least it didn't happen when you were on your first flight and totally ruin your day. Nice job on the plane though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 If it was a motorcycle, I would say it had been running very lean. In the run in phase, a lot of people like to run extra oil (if premixed) but this also leans the mixture out. Maybe fuel flow problem also caused leaning? Don't know much about stroker aircraft engines but rebuilt a couple of bikes.... Commiserations, she looked like there had been a lot of loving work put in to get to that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The guy that helps me rebuild my bike engines made me use a break in lubricant. a mixture of high temp grease and motor oil which you rub into the cylinder walls and coat the sides of the piston. You just be careful to keep your engine clean as any grit is stuck to the mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Pud, you`ve created a great looking aircraft, nice work! Good to see 95:25 still alive and well, I hope it flies exactly the way you want it to. All the best, Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Pud, you`ve created a great looking aircraft, nice work!Good to see 95:25 still alive and well, I hope it flies exactly the way you want it to. All the best, Frank. Thanks Frank, I'm sure it will fly well. The engine is with Les Dean Racing but won't have anything done for 3 weeks due to 3 other Rotax 582s he has to work on. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 The engine was completely rebuilt and has just been through the run in process - about 1.5 hours on the clock. Hi pud, Sorry about the motor.I`m guilty of posting my reply yesterday without reading all the posts so only became aware this morning. If it`s ok, I`m interested to know how the motor was run in. Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hi pud, Sorry about the motor.I`m guilty of posting my reply yesterday without reading all the posts so only became aware this morning.If it`s ok, I`m interested to know how the motor was run in. Frank. G'day Frank, The engine was run in strictly to the Rotax schedule - I didn't do the run in procedure but I was there and witnessed the event. With about 5 minutes to run the engine quit, and after inspecting the carbies it was found some crud was blocking a jet. The L2 doing the run in procedure cleaned out the carbies and finished the run in procedure on a later day when I wasn't there. I have not seen the engine run since, although my L2 says it cut out suddenly again after the run in procedure was essentially finished. I wasn't aware of this latest event on the day we were supposed to test fly, only after we couldn't start the engine on the day. After the engine is rebuilt, we still have some investigation work to do to determine the cause of no fuel/lubrication. In my very in-expert view we need to look in 3 areas - carbies, pulse pump, and electric pump. Let's throw in another couple of areas - crankcase pressure and one from left field; type of 2 stroke oil used! Any thoughts? Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 That's a familiar pattern to me. I raced multi cylinder two strokes, and whenever I lost one cylinder due to spark or fuel blockage, another one would seize/melt the piston depending how much load was on the engine. in my case Pud there was always plenty of load so I usually burnt a hole in the towards one side/collapsed the whole piston, gouged the bore or in a few cases jacked the bore out. A very thorough crud study is in order, starting withe a thorough examination of the tank from all angles, fuel lines and anywhere the fuel goes right through the jet system. I always replaced fuel filters which hadn't been used for 3 or 4 months - cheap insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Let's throw in another couple of areas - crankcase pressure and one from left field; type of 2 stroke oil used! I suspect the "crud" you mentioned has done it, but looking at these two: Crankcase pressure: After a two stroke has been standing a long time the crankcase needs to be primed, so it will turn over quite a few times and suck in quite a lot of mixture before the plug gets the correct ratio and it fires. I never had any problems other than that. The crankcase can't manufacture additional pressure, so I wouldn't be looking there. I never found the type of two stroke oil to be an issue, although naturally I used oils recommended for racing (high temp) operation, however before I gained experience, and learnt to cool the engine by increasing the richness I equated seizures with lack of oil and upped the oil mixture which increased the seizures. The cause was the fuel jets were very sensitive to oil mix ratio, and if you increased the ratio the mixture passed more slowly through the jet, leaned the mixture and burnt the pistons. Once I learnt that lesson, I got total reliability with an engine usually lasting a season (a long time in racing) It could be that the oil mix was too great, and I would certainly only use what Rotax recommends, and not use additives which will also serve to thicken the mixture making it harder to get through the main jets, but having found "crud", I think you are on the issue. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 I suspect the "crud" you mentioned has done it, but looking at these two:Crankcase pressure: After a two stroke has been standing a long time the crankcase needs to be primed, so it will turn over quite a few times and suck in quite a lot of mixture before the plug gets the correct ratio and it fires. I never had any problems other than that. The crankcase can't manufacture additional pressure, so I wouldn't be looking there. I never found the type of two stroke oil to be an issue, although naturally I used oils recommended for racing (high temp) operation, however before I gained experience, and learnt to cool the engine by increasing the richness I equated seizures with lack of oil and upped the oil mixture which increased the seizures. The cause was the fuel jets were very sensitive to oil mix ratio, and if you increased the ratio the mixture passed more slowly through the jet, leaned the mixture and burnt the pistons. Once I learnt that lesson, I got total reliability with an engine usually lasting a season (a long time in racing) It could be that the oil mix was too great, and I would certainly only use what Rotax recommends, and not use additives which will also serve to thicken the mixture making it harder to get through the main jets, but having found "crud", I think you are on the issue. Good luck Some good stuff here thanks turbo, It is interesting you mention the oil mix ratio as the L2 mentioned to me that he increased the oil ratio from 50.1 to "around 45.1" as an added precaution whilst running in the engine. I confess I'm not sure of the oil type used but I will find out. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 That's 11% more oil going through each main jet. I personally wouldn't put more than 5% through. If you think it though, you don't have any more cylinder area or piston area during the break in cycle and you're actually trying to wear down any high spots. Temperature is far more critical than lubrication, and variable loads are far better than flyingh loads. However, don't take any notice of me, but check with Rotax for their recommended run in procedure. If they don't have one, then don't add extra oil, otherwise exactly as they say because they are the ones the blew up the trial units on the dynos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 That's 11% more oil going through each main jet. I personally wouldn't put more than 5% through. If you thing it though, you don't have any more cylinder area or piston area during the break in cycle and you're actually trying to wear down any high spots. Temperature is far more critical than lubrication, and variable loads are far better than flyingh loads.However, don't take any notice of me, but check with Rotax for their recommended run in procedure. If they don't have one, then don't add extra oil, otherwise exactly as they say because they are the ones the blew up the trial units on the dynos. I hear you turbo, And I have heard or read in a number of locations now not to increase the oil content on running in, or any other time for that matter. I have not been able to find anything from Rotax to suggest extra oil during running in. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Richening the mixture is a safer way to make sure you get through the break in process. I had a similar issue with one of my 2stroke bikes, seized almost straight away after a rebuild, my engine builder friend put me onto the break in lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Pud, I`ve run in my 4 previous 582 and also my current 503 by the formal Rotax run in proceedure and I`ve always used the standard 50:1 petrol/oil mix. I`ve had no problems and see no reason to increase the oil ratio. One problem with running in the 582 is that they can overheat,making it difficult to maintain the run in proceedure, without stoping the engine, part way through . One way to help control the water temperature is to run water from a garden hose over the radiator. Water temperature should be kept between 140 to 180 degrees farenheit/60 to 82 celsius. If the temp exceeds this, the engine must be stoped and allowed to cool below 180 before restarting the proceedure,where it was left off. Frank. Ps, There`s a possibility that your engine simply over heated and seized on the piston. PPs, When I do a run in, I use a watch to time the rpm/time intervals and I have the run in chart and tick off each rpm/time interval as it expires,that way I know I`ve done them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 Pud, I`ve run in my 4 previous 582 and also my current 503 by the formal Rotax run in proceedure and I`ve always used the standard 50:1 petrol/oil mix. I`ve had no problems and see no reason to increase the oil ratio.One problem with running in the 582 is that they overheat,making it difficult to maintain the run in proceedure, without stoping the engine, part way through . One way to help control the water temperature is to run water from a garden hose over the radiator. Water temperature should be kept between 140 to 180 degrees farenheit/60 to 82 celsius. If the temp exceeds this, the engine must be stoped and allowed to cool below 180 before restarting the proceedure,where it was left off. Frank. Ps, There`s a possibility that your engine simply over heated and seized on the piston. PPs, When I do a run in, I use a watch to time the rpm/time intervals and I have the run in chart and tick off each rpm/time interval as it expires,that way I know I`ve done them all. All good stuff thanks Frank, I'll be taking this into account on the next run in procedure. The L2 who did the run in was using the chart just as you say, but I don't remember anything being mentioned about overheating. Cheers, Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Well finally I got someone to at least look at the engine after Les lost interest, to give me some idea on what parts are required and what costs would be involved. It seems to rebuild this engine will cost me way over $5000 so I'm looking to buy new from Bert Flood. But final throw of the dice...... Is there any 2nd hand, but good 582s out there for sale? I'd be keen to explore the possibility of acquiring such an animal. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfox1 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hi Pud how much of the engine is damaged it seems a bit much for a rebuild cheers Geoff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hi Pud how much of the engine is damaged it seems a bit much for a rebuildcheers Geoff.. Well I thought so too skyfox1, hence my post here for any 2nd hand engines in market land. I've been quoted $1325 per cylinder barrel - need 2 as the ones I have are now outside the tolerance, 2 pistons at $350, plus gaskets, rings?, cageless bearings; and that's without checking the crankshaft. Labour "more than $2000" - read $2500!!! I get the feeling I'm being screwed over here. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 You can't get over sized pistons? Have you looked @ importing a used engine from the states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 There's a guy on eBay USA that sells rebuilt Rotax engines (most with low hours), he has auctions that usually sit around 1-2k USD. They will probably sell for a little over 2k. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ROTAX-582-90-DCDI-ENGINE-VERY-NICE-READY-GO-L-K-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem483fe330f6QQitemZ310309499126QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear I found this one (not the guy I was talking about) that comes minus carbs and exhaust. He says he only ships to the US but I'm sure you can get him to post to Australia, if you browse around the USA eBay, you're bound to find a good deal. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I've been involved with both the rebuilding, and brand new engines. With the new engine you get everything. Fella's this stuff is getting old. carbs exhaust system everything is old.. The mount bolt threads in the crankcase get flogged. The cases can become porous and leak air ( this is a common fault with 2-strokes) The crank is rarely rebuilt these days..Don't muck about with a 582 unless you know its history. By "muck about", I mean spend money on it The Motor is not bad value new and if you look after it , will get a good run. Think of it as a cost per hour, and an investment in SAFE flying. How much time and anxiety mucking around with rubbish. Life is too short to muck around with worn out 2-strokes, drink BAD wine, drive Land Rovers etc. Long term, (and anytime,inaviation) you are better off with a NEW one. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Whats a new Rotax582 cost? And are there alternatives for the 582 for the Thruster- granted that you may no longer have a "certified" aircraft... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Around 7k, I think. You can dispose of the other engine, ( preferably for a non-aviation use). Better to do it before you pull it to bits and is still running. The HKS 700? was produced as a substitute/ alternate engine for the 582. It has slightly less power in the version I have flown. There may be later versions. Both these engine have reduction gears which makes them a bit more effective. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Will be ordering a new 582 from Floods tomorrow. $6375 plus GST, includes carbs, pull start, fuel pump and exhaust system. Will reuse 2 piece radiator, reduction gear box and electric start. Pud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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